07-10-2002 18:01									#1
	Replacing Godking Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In the previous turnchat (6/10) GodKing asked someone to volunteer to be his replacement for the next turn phase, and i did. So i'll be replacing him, i hope GK can certify of that. In this opportunity i also ask that some 1000 lytons or so will be dedicated for rusing a few temples and courthouses over the next 3 turns, as Shiber suggested, this will be most important for the GA we are about to have, most likely in the next 1-2 turns (dpepends on Aggie's tactics and if we even declare on america at all). I know this is a bit too much, and i can cut it to the neccesary, but i really need few hundred lytons- this will pay off in the GA, and hopefully a Republic as well.

	07-10-2002 18:12									#2
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What about Astronomy and Gunpowder? Purchasing Astronomy and discovering the Lost Civs first would double our money faster than building temples would.

	07-10-2002 18:22									#3
	Got spare money?

We can pay for that in gpt.
We need to reserve our hard cash for hurrying. It's an emergency in terms of city planning - the 20 turn Golden Age is arriving and we're not prepared!

	07-10-2002 18:39									#4
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I believe this would be a poor time to have a GA as we still haven't cleared or roaded many of out tiles.

	07-10-2002 18:42									#5
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It's either now or we wait until The Hoover Dam and build it. We won't get any other chances to use our WCs.

	07-10-2002 18:45									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber It's either now or we wait until The Hoover Dam and build it. We won't get any other chances to use our WCs.

That's bull, we can use our wc's anytime we want. France is our "war on the shelf", just declare war, bop a Frenchie on the head and instant GA.

	07-10-2002 19:10									#7
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And when are we going to attack France?

It seems to me that this discussion is pointless. It's always "better" to have the GA later. Why have it now when we haven't cleared and improved all of our jungle yet? But then when we're done clearing jungle, roading and mining people will want marketplaces and banks in every city to make better use of the commerce bonus the GA gives. We do that and people ask for courthouses so that we will suffer from less corruption and lose less of the extra commerce to corruption. We do that, and then people start asking for FACTORIES so that we can make more use of the production bonus.
Now would be an excellent time for a GA. We need the boost to start building proper infrastructure and to finish a palace and a forbidden palace. The more we hold the GA, the more we hold the palace+FP and the much-needed, over-delayed infrastructure upgrade.

	07-10-2002 19:14									#8
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The question is do we NEED a GA now?

No, we're winning the game. We are at the forefront in military, culture, land area, resources, luxuries, AND tech.

The only reason we don't have Astronomy and Gunpowder is we CHOOSE every turn not to acquire them. We can buy them anytime we want them.

So why use a GA ineffieciently when we don't need it right now.

	07-10-2002 19:25									#9
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We can't possibly replace GodKing, only succeed him.

	07-10-2002 19:34									#10
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You forgot to mention that we are the most underdeveloped country in the known world after the Iroquois. Furthermore, buying techs will not always be that easy.
We need this GA now to build the new palace and FP and work on our city infrastructure, meaning building those long-overdue courthouses and libraries.

	07-10-2002 19:42									#11
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That's all fine and good except the Palace/FP debate is not concluded yet. Do we need to stop the game over that? That decision is imperitive NOW! What is taking so long? Get those started, and lets move on!

	07-10-2002 20:14									#12
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Shiber france has many warriors even if we just have a few chariots available we could get a GA then. Even a brief war of 5 turns could gain us almost all there nation so I don't know if we should have a GA now. I have suggested an emergency plan that will spy on america, BEFORE the next turn chat. When that mission is complete I can determine if it is ok to wait for knights to attack America.
Aggie

	07-10-2002 21:34									#13
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You have a point there. In any case, my point was mute because attacking French swordsmen with WCs is just as difficult as attacking American spearman (in fact more difficult since the latter are fortified).
I still think a GA is necessary to build up our infrastructure, but I've changed my mind about when to get the GA. Instead, I propose that Apolytonia switches governments to Republic even this turn and attacks with the two knights currently near Gaia the next turn (500 AD). Once we're out of Anarchy and in Republic, use the WCs to take New York and generate a GA.
The reason for this is that we will not switch governments during the Golden Age since that will be wasteful. Therefore if we get a GA now we will have to postpone the switch to Republic in 20 turns.

	07-10-2002 21:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb The question is do we NEED a GA now?

Yes, we need to use it to bring our GRAVELY laking infrastructure/improvements up to some form of decent level.

quote: No, we're winning the game. We are at the forefront in military, culture, land area, resources, luxuries, AND tech.

We are at a critical juncture were we can BE a Great Power, or be second class. The reason why we are at the forfront in culture is that we got Temples in our cities first, while the other Civs build Coloseums (more culture, but starting later). They now have libraries, temples, Cathedrals & Universities. We started earlier, but they will quickly catch us up and pass us by.

Land Area. Well we have taken it from other Civs. But if we don't keep up with the military technologies, then someone (or ones) will come and TAKE it from us and we won't be able to stop them.

We do have Knights, Swords, Longbowman, Catupults & Pikemen. But there will soon be Musketmen, Cannon, Cavalry & Riflemen soon on the seen. And most likely the other Civs will have them first. Rome & Germany have Gunpowder and if we tried to take them on now (assuming they have muskets) we would lose, or just beat ourselves up against them. We need to beable to generate for ourselves the needed technologies to survive.

Resources, well there aren't that many yet, Iron & Horses. Saltpeter is now available to a select few. Where is it, no one knows. The closest to us might be underneath Washington. What de we do then. We just renegotiated Peace with everybody BUT america. It will be 17 turns until the deal is cancelable (hey, a GA last for 20 turns, what great timing). And the all important Coal will be here fairly soon to, and we wnat to be there when it's first discovered.

Luxuries, we have control of 4 of the 5 Luxuries that Anabanana has available (Wine, Dye, Incense & Dye). We trade for the 5th one, Ivory. We have no surplus that we can trade the lost Civs for their Furs, Gems & Silks. And even if we get contact with them next turn, we will NOT be able to trade with them because we still need Navigation or Magnetism (or one of the lost civs does). One thing that I've noticed is that the AI won't build a harbor until it needs it for trade. If that's the case, it might be a while before we see those lost Luxuries. And our military would not be in a position to take those luxuries by force, they're just too far away.

Technology, the final critical item that EVERYTHING else is key to. The argument if that we can take the technologies from the other Civs, as we wish. Or that we can buy the technologies as we get the cash. We need the Cash to help purchase our needed Infrastructure/Improvements, so that option is out somewhat. And the prices will only be increasing.

quote: The only reason we don't have Astronomy and Gunpowder is we CHOOSE every turn not to acquire them. We can buy them anytime we want them.

We only choose not to buy them because they are TOO EXPENSIVE. We would seriously compramize our economy if we did. We CAN choose to work up the research for the techs.

quote: So why use a GA ineffieciently when we don't need it right now.

We need a GA, a Republican GA if we are to catch up to the other Civs before the end of the Middle Ages. We can accomplish this AND still wage some minor wars, if need be. I would rather work towards building up to annex some of Germany. Berlin is very close to the Border and they have Copernagus's Observatory. Otto will be knocking on our door fairly soon, we need to be prepaired for it!

E_T

	07-10-2002 22:30									#15
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OK, so in other words, I can't run against you, eh? Something sounds fishy here...

	07-10-2002 23:00									#16
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This is getting off the offical topic, but cotining the discussion.

Germany and Aztecs are the most agressive civs in this game. The Aztec heartland is away from us, so we aren't as concerned with them, but the German heart land is right on our border.

We must have Musket Men on the boarder cities with Germany to keep the peace with them.

If we agquire Gun Powder right now, we can probably trade it at a profit for Astronmey.

Surplus money should then spent for the following:

Rushing Court Houses in high corupt cities not so corrupt that it wouldn't do any good.

Rushing Market Places.

Upgrading Pike Men to Musket Men along the German boarder.

Upgrading Galleys to Caravels. (And later Galleons)

Rushing Libaries.

Will any civ give a decent price for Music Theory? If so, sell it so we can recover from the mistake of buying it instead of Education prior to the Persian peace deal.

	07-10-2002 23:31									#17
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He means a temporary replacement for the next turnchat, not the elections for next term.

	08-10-2002 00:30									#18
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Ah. Then, in that case, I shall, without a doubt, run for City Planner on the Hawk/Imperialist ballot...and I'm sure any Gazette readers will vote for me as well, due to my new column that will start appearing as soon as practicable...

	08-10-2002 03:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt We can't possibly replace GodKing, only succeed him.

Here, here!

	08-10-2002 04:34									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Don't forget the cost of upgrading from Pikemen to Musketmen is one of the most expensive upgrades (60 Lytons per Pikeman). We currently have 17 Pikemen & 9 Spearmen (80 Lytons to upgrade to Musket) for a total upgrade cost of 1740 Lytons. That doesn't include 1 Warrior, 3 Archers & 6 War Chariots that also need to be upgraded. We need to make sure that whatever deal that we get should take this into account.

E_T

	08-10-2002 04:56									#21
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I totaly agree with what E_T stated, we need this Republic GA, and we need it in the near future, IIRC Togas wrote (i don't remember the thread) that besides some espionage mission in a cost of 66g, we have no other expenses, and no plans for tech acquisition. So this plan could be put to work, including a switch to Republic, in the next turn 490AD or the one after.

	08-10-2002 05:27									#22
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Zeit,

As you will be doing GK's job for the next turn and we'll be going to Republic soon, I wanted to point out something. BFM is about to go into Cival Unrest, so you might want to rush the Temple there. Boom Town & Another Glorious City will also go into unrest (in Republic) unless temples are rushed there, too. AGC is currently building a Barracks, so you might want to shift it to Temple and then back to Barracks (or Harbor) after the Temple.

Remember that if you rush any buildings, not to do it right before we change to Republic (and have a breif period of anarchy. I don't know what the timing is going to be, but there is talk about switching to Republic, then declaring war and starting the GA. You need to get with the SMC & MoE about what the timing will be.

E_T

	08-10-2002 07:18									#23
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Yes, something to keep in mind is that all of the cities on Uber Island will go into revolt once we're in Republic if they are over Pop 1 unless:

1. They have a temple, which only lets them go to pop 3 w/o revolt.
2. We have Astronomy and they have a harbor OR are connected by another city on Uber Isle with a harbor.
3. They have entertainers in order to prevent revolt.

While most cities in the empire will be revolt-free even under Republic because of our luxuries and the presence of temples in nearly every city, the cities on Uber Isle are w/o temples and w/o connections to our luxuries. You will need to keep a very close eye on them. This is true even if we *don't* go into Republic, largely because most of these cities do not have military units in them, the only benefit in this regard to monarchy...

As for what to do about the problem, probably the best suggestion I've heard is to use Uber Isle as something of a "worker factory" to pump out indigenous Apolytonian workers that can be shipped across to the mainland and go to work on clearing the jungle more quickly. This would solve both our unrest problem on Uber Isle *and* the currently very slow progress of the jungle removal on the mainland. Under monarchy, we can also afford to support over 10 more units - and these could easily be workers. I'm sure the Minister of Public Works would not mind . However, this is just my suggestion based upon an idea I heard from another poster (I don't rightly remember who it was anymore... my apologies).

	08-10-2002 09:59									#24
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when are we gonna do something about our backwardness in technlogy? we must improve infrastructure!

	08-10-2002 12:04									#25
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That's what the upcoming GA and shift to Republic will help us address. We should have a good start on it by the end of the GA.

E_T

	08-10-2002 20:04									#26
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Actually there is a local luxary on Urber Island.
As soon as we connect it to the cities, it will slighty bump up the limit.

I sugest the normal queue for Uber Island cities be (not counting the one building a settler):

1. Cheap defender. (Obsolete Warrior?)
2. Worker.
3. Temple.
4. Worker.
5. Improvement
6. Worker
7. Improvement
8. Worker

etc until Uber Island is trade connected.

The only way we will improve our science standing is to have a golden age + Republic.

	08-10-2002 21:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Actually there is a local luxary on Urber Island. As soon as we connect it to the cities, it will slighty bump up the limit.

There is??? I noticed an iron resource on a hill tile on the south side of the island and some gold (which is NOT a luxury) on the hill north of AGC, but I don't remember any luxuries... (though I'm not looking at the map and it could just be another sign that I'm going blind ).

quote: I sugest the normal queue for Uber Island cities be (not counting the one building a settler): 1. Cheap defender. (Obsolete Warrior?) 2. Worker. 3. Temple. 4. Worker. 5. Improvement 6. Worker 7. Improvement 8. Worker etc until Uber Island is trade connected. The only way we will improve our science standing is to have a golden age + Republic.

I fully agree on your build order proposed for cities on Uber Isle... we'll need a (relatively) safe way to transport all of those workers over to the mainland (though some will obviously stay to further develop Uber Isle) - we really need to get Astronomy.

	08-10-2002 22:20									#28
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-Even before we get Astronomy, we can have worker sweathouse on the Isle. In the meantime the workers will turn the island from his current primitive state into a fully improved area, to serve as an example and inspiration for the Apolytonian mainland workers!

	08-10-2002 22:22									#29
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HI.

Zeit volunteered to replace me for the next turn chat. History Guy and any others interested I very much urge you to run for next election. CP is one of the most important jobs, and one of the easiest to screw up on. I know from first hand..... anyway, because of its importance I urge any and all people who are interested to run this election. I have learned a lot, and my games have improved significantly because of it.

Per my orders - No units are to be built on uber isle until a barracks is availabe to make it veteran (except in emergency of course). Try to rush any and all temples first, then courthouses. Once temples are on uber isle, keep pop low by building workers (I would like around 10 total). Watch persia for culture flip, purchase temples along our english border is a priority. If the decision is to go to war against the americans, give aggie (our SMC) whatever he needs.

Build for most cities (recomendation only, should be adjusted on a city per city basis):

Temple
barracks
defenders
courthouse
library/cathedral/marketplace as most appropriate

Again, thank you Zeit for helping me out this time. If any body is interested in doing the CP, and would like to do a set of orders as a test run, please PM me and I will be more than happy to talk and work with you.

	08-10-2002 23:23									#30
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Arnelos, looks like I'm the one going blind.

I mistook the iron on Uber Island on the southern hills for gems.