07-10-2002 19:48									#1
	Are boats for exploration under SMC or under MoIE Get a bigger avatar today!

This is something that has come up again. Now unlike the debate in Trips time we actually can build these units in real numbers. The question is this are boats for exploration(galley/caravels) under the SMC or MoIE. Basically this will discussion will determine under which one the deputy in charge of exploration on the seas(The DISCO) will serve under. I am open to either way but want the people to speak.
Aggie

	07-10-2002 19:53									#2
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Don't care. Build now!

	07-10-2002 19:56									#3
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IMHO, they (galleys, caravals, galeons, transports) should fall under MoIE until such time as the SMC calls them into service for a military campaign. The SMC would have to petition the current prez (or poll the people) to give him temporary control of scouting vessals.

The only problem with this is that our ships could be badly out of place when we need them.

	07-10-2002 20:05									#4
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I second with Donegeal.
Regarding the problem he's mentioned, I guess we'll just have to plan ahead.

	07-10-2002 20:06									#5
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I agree with donegal.

Exploration - MoIE
Troop transport/Military Campaigns - SMC

	07-10-2002 20:20									#6
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I disagree. They are no different from ground units which happen to be used for exploration. they should first be under the control of the SMC, who then has the power to second them to another ministry if this is required. Defence of the realm is more important than exploration, and the SMC should have ALL units under his command.

	07-10-2002 20:27									#7
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Exploration falls specifically under the SMC. I can dig up references on that if needed.

	07-10-2002 20:56									#8
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Any armed units are under the SMC, who is the only one able to establish the discipline of fire in the field or at sea.

	07-10-2002 21:01									#9
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according to what the rules i laid down, all boats start under control of the SMC and can be comissioned to other offices for use.

what you people let the DIA do to my rules, i don't know

	07-10-2002 21:06									#10
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digging deep, heres a quote:

quote: and back to me expanding my powers, yes, i have been doing that. why? because it's in the best interests of the military, and my job is to assure everything that is the best for our military. if we conquer a city, and our civ's units are at risk due to culture flip etc, the SMC should have the right to take charge and starve people out of the city and / or build walls or more units. The poll i put up passed (more voted yes than no, but the yes's were scattered). another thing that i did was i got the SMC many of the powers enumerated to him/her by the constitution (or whatever we call it), and i quote: quote: This officer is the principal military advisor to the President and the people, and prepares military plans and reviews overall military requirements for our nation. He/She also has the responsibility to assess threats to the security of the country and keep everyone up to date on these threats. The Military Advisor is granted the power to set up the army's strategy. He tells what troops to move where, and which battles to engage. The Military Advisor is granted the right to take an active part in negotiations of Peace Treaties, Mutual Protection Pacts, or a Right of Passage agreements. (Note: The Foreign Advisor calls the shots, but the Military Advisor must have his voice heard). if i had not pushed for the third clause, our units could be in serious danger. imagine if the man controling the units had o say in a MPP, and all of a sudden we're fighting a 2 front war we werent ready for? Yet another power i pushed for was reguardign sea transportation. It started off as a simple question, but i gave again gained power for my office. the SMC has the power to "comission" ships to any department that needs them for specific tasks, as well as just assigning them for "general" purposes. for example, if the IE Minister needs to transport a settler, i may give him a boat for the duration of the mission, or i may give him a boat for all hsi future endavors. in general, i am gaining power not for myself, as you make it out to be, but for my office and for the military in general. i believe the general apolytonian public believe the SMC post is best filled by someone willing to fight for what needs to be done.

	07-10-2002 21:13									#11
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You beat me to it. I dug back and had that same quote...There is one from Trip as well, but I can't get the wildcards working in the search engine.

	07-10-2002 21:14									#12
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I think the SMC should get control, but where matters of exploration and expansion are involved (and not just offense, defense, and transport), the SMC should be strongly incouraged to coordinate with the MoIE as to the best possible places to explore from so as to maximize our chances of acquiring more lands and being the first to colonize them.

	07-10-2002 23:35									#13
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For the record, I don't support the building of any boats right now because we need more inferstructure.

Instead upgrade the Galleys as we buy the techs to Astronemy and later Navigation.

We might have a coastal city built up enough by the time we have Navigation to build additional Galleons.

	08-10-2002 02:52									#14
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Personally, I think we should have Lord of the Admiralty or Secretary of the Navy... but that's just my opinion

As for exploration, obviously I'm a wee bit biased because I'm running for IE at the moment, but I honestly think that IE is going to become a far less meaningful position as time moves forward. With the whole consolidation of various offices, it might make sense to give the IE a little more responsibility, as the movement of settlers is going to be non-existant after a while... in conjunction with that and with the work of the Con Con, it might make sense to move the IE minister underneath either the SMC or the Foreign Ministry and form it into the "Colonial Office" in charge of administration of conquered cities (until they are handed over to the City Planner's office), movement of settlers to form new cities/colonies, and any efforts at exploration. This would make the office underneath likely the SMC and answerable to that individual (thus not really removing any responsibilities taken from the SMC from under his influence).

So the formation of a "Colonial Office" I feal is in order (though historically such offices existed underneath the Foreign Ministry, for our purposes it might be easier to place it under the War/Defense Ministry).

We may also want a seperate "Lord Admiral of the Navy" either as seperate from the SMC or underneath him. If we eventually develop a navy, this would be good. It would also create more opportunities for role-play, as the Lord Admiral of the Navy and the Supreme Military Commander (of the Army) would have to work to cooperate (not to mention with the Colonial Office and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs ). Things could get just as interesting as they did for historical colonizing/imperializing European states of the 19th Century

That's just my thoughts on the matter.

	08-10-2002 03:13									#15
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I believe that the navy should be coordinated jointly by the Minister of Imperial Expansion and the Supreme Military Commander...

Arnelos I understand too that there is a bias for me as well, since I too am running for MIE. But since it seems both of us candidates support this resolution, neither can be accused of wanting this for personal gain. And you are right, the Minister of IE will become less and less important as the game progresses, simply due to the lack of free land tiles to expand to.

	08-10-2002 03:15									#16
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I have commmented many times on the need for a Secretary of the Navy or Admiral of the Navy (etc), while at this time it is not a DIRE situation that needs to be solved, it should be cleared up soon once the Navy becomes more of a seperate entity from the military and IE.

	08-10-2002 03:52									#17
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Aggie, didn't you announce you're creating a position of a 'DISCO duck' to act as the one in charge of creating and supervising the naval exploration fleet. I feel this is a good decision and the SMC has the authority to command such an operation.
To be short i think the exploration operation should be under the SMC's superviosion.

	08-10-2002 04:22									#18
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Actually I think the MoIE should fall under both the CP and the SMC and be somewhat autonomous. They should be in charge of exploring (with units assigned by the SMC) and founding cities (settlers should NEVER be under the authority of the SMC) and planning the cities production until they reach size 3. At that point the cities would be reassigned to the CP. This way we have one office responsible for locating, founding, and starting new cities.

The SMC could concentrate on assesing foreign military threats and devising plans to defeat them and the CP could concentrate on the established empire.

We currently have given the CP and especially the SMC far too many powers that do not pertain to one another making it hard to find someone who can excel at the entire job. We have been fortunate with our last two candidates but it have such wide ranging responsibilites decreases the number of qualified individuals and reduces the number of interesting jobs open to interested citizens.

	08-10-2002 04:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Actually I think the MoIE should fall under both the CP and the SMC and be somewhat autonomous. They should be in charge of exploring (with units assigned by the SMC) and founding cities (settlers should NEVER be under the authority of the SMC) and planning the cities production until they reach size 3. At that point the cities would be reassigned to the CP. This way we have one office responsible for locating, founding, and starting new cities. The SMC could concentrate on assesing foreign military threats and devising plans to defeat them and the CP could concentrate on the established empire. We currently have given the CP and especially the SMC far too many powers that do not pertain to one another making it hard to find someone who can excel at the entire job. We have been fortunate with our last two candidates but it have such wide ranging responsibilites decreases the number of qualified individuals and reduces the number of interesting jobs open to interested citizens.

Well... I'm finding this has been happening a lot lately, but I gotta agree with GhengisFarb on this one, he's presented a convincing argument. It also goes well with my own confusion about where to stick my own conceptual "Colonial Office" (under Foreign or Military, never mind CP as well). It would make sense to leave this "Colonial Office" as an independent agency which exists to some extent under the influence of the SMC, the City Planner, and the Foreign Ministry (concerning internaction with foreign civs while performing colonial duties). This is also in line with the historical system I'm using as a model for what would make sense: colonial offices typically existed somewhat seperate from other ministries, yet drew upon the resources of several ministries and thus were dependent upon cooperation with them.

It's a workable model and my own attempts to securely place this "Colonial Office" (or "Ministry of Imperial Expansion") under a single ministry may not be what we need to go for here.

Good job for pointing this out, GhengisFarb

EDIT: I also like GhengisFarb's suggestion of giving the MIE/Colonial Office the power to not only form new cities, but administer them until they reach population of 3 (I'd add any cities captured in foreign territory rather than having the SMC administer them - not sure when they should be handed over to the City Planner). With naval vessels and units dedicated specifically to exploration also under the MIE/Colonial Office, this would certainly make sense for this remaining an important part of Apolytonia (exploration, expansion, and initial/colonial administration) into the future. It also, as GhengisFarb points out, relieves the City Planner from dealing with newly established colonies and dependencies and relieves the SMC from dealing with exploration. My suggestion is that it might also alleviate the SMC's need to administer captured cities under resistence or in the early stages of control (those this would be an area of SMC-MIE cooperation).

	08-10-2002 23:13									#20
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This does bring another issue up(the SMC controlling captured cities at first). First of all this is a policy that should continue. The smc needs absolute power of these cites to provide for there defense. I actually would like these cities to stay under the SMC until
1) The front is advanced past them
2) The war ends
One item that I am upset about, arbela was not starved as ORDERED. I had standing orders for this too happen to all cities taken. I realize there is a plan to put the cities in WLTK day but I think this should have been discussed. I have decided that boats will remain under smc however I will consult with the IE and will probably have built the exploration boats and assign them to the IE, i might retain a veto power for the smc. I do this not for myself but so the SMC can do what is best for the nation. For the record with our current administration, it would be perfectly ok for the MoIE to run the exploration program without having to answer to the SMC, I am looking to the future and we don't know who will be the IE or SMC. I am also currious to see how the new COL will streamline the government it could be that they will put IE under SMC legally which would solve this problem. Also since the main job of IE will soon be explorations, maybe we can rename it Imperial exploration instead of imperial expansion. Also for the future I propose that ALL branches of the military will answer to the SMC, but will have deputies in charge of them(though SMC will have the final say). Due to the uncertainties I will delay the creation of the"Disco" until I see how all the government will be organized, ie I don't want to creat a position only to have the new col obsolete that position.
Aggie

	08-10-2002 23:26									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie This does bring another issue up(the SMC controlling captured cities at first). First of all this is a policy that should continue. The smc needs absolute power of these cites to provide for there defense. I actually would like these cities to stay under the SMC until 1) The front is advanced past them 2) The war ends One item that I am upset about, arbela was not starved as ORDERED. I had standing orders for this too happen to all cities taken. I realize there is a plan to put the cities in WLTK day but I think this should have been discussed. I have decided that boats will remain under smc however I will consult with the IE and will probably have built the exploration boats and assign them to the IE, i might retain a veto power for the smc. I do this not for myself but so the SMC can do what is best for the nation. For the record with our current administration, it would be perfectly ok for the MoIE to run the exploration program without having to answer to the SMC, I am looking to the future and we don't know who will be the IE or SMC. I am also currious to see how the new COL will streamline the government it could be that they will put IE under SMC legally which would solve this problem. Also since the main job of IE will soon be explorations, maybe we can rename it Imperial exploration instead of imperial expansion. Also for the future I propose that ALL branches of the military will answer to the SMC, but will have deputies in charge of them(though SMC will have the final say). Due to the uncertainties I will delay the creation of the"Disco" until I see how all the government will be organized, ie I don't want to creat a position only to have the new col obsolete that position. Aggie

My suggestions were for organizational definitions not necessarily based on current office holders. I feel the SMC has control over too many different arenas. I do agree that conquered territories should no go under IE as they may be end up being razed or prone to culture flip. The SMC are an appointed Militarty Governor would make more sense to me.

I would rather see several positions of focalized power than one or two pseudo presidents (which is where I see the SMC heading).

	09-10-2002 16:59									#22
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Well, Aggie seems to be in favor of my original suggestion to solve the problem by simply making the IE subordinate to the SMC... then again, I still think GhengisFarb's argument that IE could retain its automony, but be answerable to both the City Planner and the SMC is another possibility...

This certainly needs more discussion and part of the problem here is that we don't really know for sure how the Con Con is going to change the whole system, thus affecting what we would think the best changes for the IE are...

Perhaps it would help if someone from the Con Con would like to comment on this issue and let us know the Con Con will take it into account (or already has)... Thanks

	11-10-2002 20:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX according to what the rules i laid down, all boats start under control of the SMC and can be comissioned to other offices for use. what you people let the DIA do to my rules, i don't know

hi ,

UBER , a couple should be given out to explore , but all ships should in the end fall under military rule , and in case there is war or an other emergency (example the banana fields are dry , or the export of them comes in danger) then the military should be able to take over all the ships that are being used by other government offices (who dont do anything usefull with them anyway)

ships are there to transport troops not to study what fish is in the ocean

but , about what ships are we talking , there is no fleet , .........

so , before we talk about the use , lets build a fleet

have a nice day

	14-10-2002 05:40									#24
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When can an amendment be created so we can all vote on this? Especially after this election, I believe it'll be during this term many of these questions will need answering.

	14-10-2002 07:56									#25
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I'm still wondering when the Con Con is going to notice I asked that question up there (in bold, in italics, mentioning the Con Con by name....).

The reason is that it's likely the Con Con already has plans to do some constitutional changes regarding the MoIE and SMC (not to mention half a dozen other positions), so it would be good to know what on earth they're up to before creating reforms of our own that are likely to just get flushed down the toilet.

So if anyone from the Con Con is still reading this thread, would you please comment on this issue. Thanks