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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
Exactly,
Only christian fundamentalism faded away, allowing secular society, while muslims got stuck and now they are "reaping benefits". |
Incorrect. Christian fundimentalism was defeated in battle, sometimes bloodily, sometimes just politically, but they never just faded away. Christian fundies are alive and well in the US and very powerful politically. Fortunately, the remain a minority, unfortunately, consveratives are willing to pander to them for political gain.
I have not the slightest bit of doubt that if the Fundies created a "Christian republic" it would look like Iran.
BTW, Rogan Josh, the argument doesn't carry over. All religions are equally invalid not because all religions have nasty, oppressive, and violent tendencies, but because their premise is BS. To disagree withPlato, the cave wall is what is really real. There is no fire casting shadows, just cold hard reality.
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Lars-E
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quote:
If the fundies in Christianity took over, you'd see a society just as bad as Islamic fundamentalism. |
George W. Bush is probably seen as a fundamentalist. He certainly belongs to the christian right. Are you willing to compare him to the Iranian leadership? Or even to Saddam Hussein and his "newfound" islamic religion? He sure has become religious lately...
Which christian fundamentalists would match Osama bin Laden?
Or the suppressive regime of royal Saudi family?
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Lars-E
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Seeker, theonomists believe in a spiritual interpretation of the Mosaic laws.
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Lars-E
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quote:
if you believe in the literal interpretation of the bible, i'e created in 7 days, big flood, parting of the red sea etc. then you are a very small step away from having adulterers stoned and all the other lovely punishments in the OT. |
Not at all. Christians believe that the law is fulfilled. And we are under the New Covenant, not the old one.
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Rogan Josh
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I find it really annoying that people who clearly don't understand the ideas behind Christian belief make such blatant statements about the morality of Christians. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really 'saved' or following the teachings of Christ.
Should I ahore the morality of all atheists because some atheists are evil bastards? Indeed, your creed teaches that there is no absolute right and wrong - there is no objective morality. Therefore true atheists cannot by definition have morals.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lars-E
George W. Bush is probably seen as a fundamentalist. |
Bush is also a puppet and does whatever Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft tell him. The real fundi in that group is Ashcroft. Given his actions so far, do you really believe his system of government would be benign? He is constrained right now, and he still violates the laws of the land in order to push his rigid view of what is right and moral, locking people away without access to lawyers, refusing to obey the orders of the courts in turning over documentation, etc. If he had total control aborition doctors would be excuted, homosexuality would be illegal, etc.
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Bush is also a puppet and does whatever Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft tell him. The real fundi in that group is Ashcroft. Given his actions so far, do you really believe his system of government would be benign? He is constrained right now, and he still violates the laws of the land in order to push his rigid view of what is right and moral, locking people away without access to lawyers, refusing to obey the orders of the courts in turning over documentation, etc. If he had total control aborition doctors would be excuted, homosexuality would be illegal, etc. |
Huh, at least here in UK they look defeated 
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I am getting tired of the "that's not really Islam" ****. Yes it is. Just as much as the Jerry Falwell's and the Torquemada's are really Christian. A religion is not defined by a particular (and happy liberal) subset of the religion, but by all the variations of it. Christianity is both a wonderful liberating force in people's lives, and a barbaric, murdereous force. Islam is the same. Judaism is the same. Hinduism is the same. And so on.
All religion is equally invalid. |
You should add Socialism and Labor Unionism to that list.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You forget that most atheists are ex-Christians. We know first hand what Christianity is. We understand the ideas behind it. We just think it's BS.
I don't accept your a priori defintion of what is or isn't a Christian. Anyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. Since Xianity is based on metaphysical BS, there is simply no way to test your claims. You say they aren't Xian, they say you aren't Xian. I don't care, you both are Xian. |
So if I claimed to be Christian and then proceeded to explain the position of Holy Kermit, the Frog God, in the Holy Trinity you would go ahead and blithely classify me with all the other fundies?
OTOH I could propose Luke Skywalker to be the living Christ, and his persecutor, Darth Vader, to be Satan. Except.....hmmmmm...... Luke is Darth's son, .......which means that Jesus is the son of........ OOPS! I just plagerized Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
So if I claimed to be Christian and then proceeded to explain the position of Holy Kermit, the Frog God, . . . [snip] |
I'd say there's a very broad range of widely divergent positions that could still be called Christian. Take the Mormans, Branch Davidians, and the Moonies for example. They are all way out there, but their core beliefs are still Christian. If you modified the bliefs so that even the basics were gone, such as the Holy Kermit, then you are leaving the realm of Xianity (but if you are preaching such things, I doubt you'd call yourself a Christian). With the Skywalker thing, I'd say you are moving into fringe Christian cult area.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Lars-E
It's absolute nonsense saying that a christian theocracy or government would impose sharia-like laws. |
History shows otherwise. The Spanish Inquisition, whitch hunts, persecution of Catholics, persecution of non-Catholics little things like those.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
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Have you guys not read history?
I love it when I am told what the 'meaning' of christianity is... How do any of you know? raise your hands if God or the Holy Spirit, or Jesus has come down lately and told you all what the meaning of Chirstianity is... But of course, all posters here in Apolyton are far greater theologians than all the great medeival thinkers, i mean, its not like they didn't study the Bible day after day. Yeah, those Popes, the shepards of men on earth, had no fricking clue what christianity was: I mean, how could true Christians allow for the cursades, the slaughter not only of Muslim and Jews, but of other christians as well? Oh, yeah, and they had no clue about what the hell the bible said, these men who studied the Bible every part of their day, when they ordered the heretics, schimatichs, and other burned or killed. We all know that Lars-E is the greatest christian theologian of all times! Ignore those idiots of the middle Ages!
Ohh, and we all know islam is terrible and evil and wicked. it previous behavior towards other faiths, certainly less harsh for those fellow peoples of the book than Christian treatment of others, was just a sham buildin up to todays fundamentalism.....
While I disagree with Che about the validity of Relegion (even if I am a humanist aetheist), I find it insulting to my intelligence, and utterly ignorant of simple history, for anyone here to tell me the 'real' meaning of a relegion.
We have all taken lit. classes here, no? When teachers ask those stupid: 'what does the book mean' questions, is the answer from everyone always the same? I mean, does not every piece of literature have a singular, clearly obvious to all, meaning? NO, IT DOESN"T. The Bible, the Torah, the Q'uran are all works of literature, so when you ask billions of people through centuries and entire continents, with highly different, and changing styles of life, of socio-economic an political values, what these pieces of literature mean, is it not obvious that different interpretations will come about?
No one here, who lives in a democratic, capitalistic, humanistic, individual-rigths oriented state, will, if fully indoctrinated into those fundamental beliefs, give e an interpretation of the Bible, or any other Holy book, that tries to fit the Book into those values., just as when me lived in aristocratic, fudalistic, estates or class based rigths oriented state, give me an explination of the Book that fist that world-view.
Anytime a world-view that views itself as absolute, as unquestionable, as the Word of the Lord must be for it to be valid, takes political power, it will be deformed and manipulated to push certain values and aims that individual share, that may hav nothing at all to do with what is actually in the book, for as we all know, any haf-way decent orator can BS thier way through anything, and find justification for anything, in any book, specially books as opily written as texts of relegion. Anyone who thinks a Christian state would not be as represive as an Islamic state is fooling themselves as to the nature of Man and power.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Should I ahore the morality of all atheists because some atheists are evil bastards? Indeed, your creed teaches that there is no absolute right and wrong - there is no objective morality. Therefore true atheists cannot by definition have morals. |
Only if you use a purely religious definition of morals. You also must ignore the reality of the who goes to jail. Atheists have a disproportionatly low percentage in US prisions.
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08-10-2002 15:04
Bollocks.
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