08-10-2002 05:36									#1
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Bush's speech Monday night had this effect on my opinions on Iraq:

zip.

I was ambivalent before and I'm ambivalent now. No new info to push me into the War camp, but nothing so egregiously dumb to push me into the Peace camp.

How bout you?

	08-10-2002 05:44									#2
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It was one of his better speeches. He said that we were a friend to the people of Iraq and that will no doubt be proved to be true over time.

	08-10-2002 05:47									#3
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Anybody notice the line that makes it impossible for Saddam to comply?

"Let the witnesses and there families out of Iraq now so they can be debriefed by the UN"

Interesting..I think somthing has been going on behind the scenes. Saddam wont let his WoMD makers leave like that.

Also he made a very good link to terrorism. Abu Nidal, Apparently Al-Queda officials have fled to Iraq and even this year a top official went for chemotherapy in Bagdad.

	08-10-2002 05:49									#4
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The "Iraqi people" line was a nice touch. The laundry list of aggrieved parties (Kurds, Turkemen, Shi'ia, etc...) was a bad idea, since the one thing that unites the Iraqi people is, if their faction were in power for a day they'd kill off all the others.

	08-10-2002 05:52									#5
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It was an excellent speech and I hope the misled anti-war crowd will finally see their faults and swithc over. Saddam will never comply with those demands set so it is pretty much over for him.

Bush pretty much slammed the Iraqi Regime for charges many people forgot about. Iraq does harbor terrorist and does have weapons of mass destruction.

This speech strengthens my opinion that action must be taken and that includes the removal of Saddam Hussein.

	08-10-2002 06:19									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Fez It was an excellent speech and I hope the misled anti-war crowd will finally see their faults and swithc over. Saddam will never comply with those demands set so it is pretty much over for him. Bush pretty much slammed the Iraqi Regime for charges many people forgot about. Iraq does harbor terrorist and does have weapons of mass destruction. This speech strengthens my opinion that action must be taken and that includes the removal of Saddam Hussein.

Baah.

Anyway, I saw past this propaganda. It was just everything hes been saying for months wrapped in a neat little package.

Yes, Iraq probably harbours terrorists. So does Pakistan. Yes, Iraq probably has WoMB. Saddam has no incentive NOT to use them because bush will kill Saddam. Because Saddam has no incentive not to use them, he will use them and this is reason enough not to invade.

*Goes back to watching Heather Wilson on CSPAN talk about someones sense of humour*

	08-10-2002 06:24									#7
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Oh please. You are just ignoring what is reality.

The evil murderous dictator must be removed and you don't want to have him removed. That in my mind is pure ignorance.

And this wasn't propaganda... actually none short than the truth. Bush did a very good job. Sure there are a few leftist radicals who love Saddam Hussein and will continue to oppose Bush entirely.

	08-10-2002 06:30									#8
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Gee, at the risk of being demonized by Fez, I'll reiterate here that I am torn in two by this decision. On one hand, yes it is obviously war propaganda -- that's how an administration manufactures consent. And on that same hand, this is an administration I despise.

But on the other hand, I believe it is in the best interests of the US to have Saddam gone immediately or sooner. The reasons I question whether a pre-emptive is the best way of accomplishing this are pretty standard: (1) lousy precedent for international law, (2) pisses off the rest of the world even more against the US.

I won't make any disparaging remarks against either the pro- or con-invasion arguments. It's a difficult decision. Those do happen.

Divine intervention in the form of a sudden heart-attack would be appreciated, if anybody's listening...

	08-10-2002 06:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Oh please. You are just ignoring what is reality.

Baah me.

quote: The evil murderous dictator must be removed and you don't want to have him removed. That in my mind is pure ignorance.

When did I say I didnt want him removed?!

I want him removed, but only if you can garentee that 1) They'll give Iraqis democracy, not install a dictatorship, 2) There will be *VERY LITTLE* loss of life and 3) It is the last option.

If Saddam in fact does have WoMD, he has no reason not to use it. We have friends in Israel, I know someone in Kuwait. What if Iraq truely has nukes? I dont want to see Kuwait city exploding, nor do i want to see Haifa go up in smoke. Again, he has no reaosn not to use them, so he probably WILL use them if hes cornered and about to die.

Also, we still haven't even tried the UN. Lets let it do its job......If that doesnt work, then lets try other things.

quote: And this wasn't propaganda... actually none short than the truth. Bush did a very good job. Sure there are a few leftist radicals who love Saddam Hussein and will continue to oppose Bush entirely.

Let me gues.....Anyone who doesnt support bush is a Saddam-Lover and an America-Hater?

	08-10-2002 06:33									#10
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I won't demonize you Kepler. I just am angry at the people who don't want to take action.

	08-10-2002 06:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Baah me.

A sheep? Bahh...bahha...bahhhaa...bahha..

quote: I want him removed, but only if you can garentee that 1) They'll give Iraqis democracy, not install a dictatorship, 2) There will be *VERY LITTLE* loss of life and 3) It is the last option.

How can I promise any of that? I am not President. Anyways I think you are referring to the US... considering Bush's speech I think democracy will be attained and loss of life will be minimal because Iraqi generals do not like Saddam.

quote: I dont want to see Kuwait city exploding, nor do i want to see Haifa go up in smoke. Again, he has no reaosn not to use them, so he probably WILL use them if hes cornered and about to die.

Well the US would of got those weapons by then wouldn't they? And if he even thinks about attacking Israel... his days will be numbered meaning he won't survive.

quote: Also, we still haven't even tried the UN. Lets let it do its job......If that doesnt work, then lets try other things.

The US is trying the UN.

quote: Let me gues.....Anyone who doesnt support bush is a Saddam-Lover and an America-Hater?

Well anybody who does not support America or the facts.

	08-10-2002 06:36									#12
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"Again, he has no reaosn not to use them, so he probably WILL use them if hes cornered and about to die."

So you admit he probably has them. But currently has no reason to use. Yet, you seem to fear that if he's cornered...he will use them.

Smells like fear and a case of the "Dont rock the boat mentality" to me.

Suppose I were Saddam and turned the tables..and Said I will use these weapons if Country X does not lift sanctions asap. Since you were bluffing the last time around.

	08-10-2002 06:39									#13
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I think the other side is starting to tremble... they felt the facts hit them right in the head and didn't expect it.

	08-10-2002 06:40									#14
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I felt somthing else hit my head just now. It was my Civ3 Disk case falling off the shelf. And then it cut my lip when I tried to put in. Talk about bad luck..

	08-10-2002 06:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Fez A sheep? Bahh...bahha...bahhhaa...bahha..

Quoted and saved.

quote: How can I promise any of that? I am not President. Anyways I think you are referring to the US... considering Bush's speech I think democracy will be attained and loss of life will be minimal because Iraqi generals do not like Saddam

Yes yes, whenever I refer to "you" i usually mean United States (although I could mean you.....you just have to take it in context)

quote: Well the US would of got those weapons by then wouldn't they?

and if even one gets through?

quote: And if he even thinks about attacking Israel... his days will be numbered meaning he won't survive.

Hahaha! Do you really think we'll let him live?! Hahahaha!!

quote: The US is trying the UN.

Other than the fact that its Going to try to block ANY inspections unless they meet US demands. The US doesnt want peace....it wants war. And it wants war now.

quote: Well anybody who does not support America or the facts.

And who says what America wants? I live in America....so I obviously support america. The facts are that 1) America is not even hinting of going after Pakistan and 2) Trying to begin a war that doesnt need to be fought. Those are the facts.

	08-10-2002 06:42									#16
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Why does this forum have to attract all 15 of the marxists living america?

	08-10-2002 06:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Why does this forum have to attract all 15 of the marxists living america?

I know 40

	08-10-2002 06:47									#18
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Ahh I see that we are unfamiliar with sarcasm. I will now withdraw my comments above

	08-10-2002 06:53									#19
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Ahh I see that we are unfamiliar with sarcasm. I will now withdraw my comments above

Counter-sarcasm maybe?

	08-10-2002 06:56									#20
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ya somthing like that.

	08-10-2002 07:02									#21
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory ya somthing like that.

I was referring to myseslf

(btw, this is )

	08-10-2002 07:03									#22
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Saddam has been under the US's thumb for the last decade. We are enforcing no fly zones on a daily basis. What exactly is the threat that he presents? This is a BS ploy by this administration to distract the American people from the real problems of the economy as well as petty revenge for the attempt on Bush I's life. Bush II has been quoted on a couple of occasions stating he wants to avenge his old man. Pretty slim reeds to start a war, methinks.

	08-10-2002 07:03									#23
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Was anyone watching Rumsfeld during the speech? I'm just curious to know if you could see his lips move.

	08-10-2002 07:05									#24
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First I'm going to say I support the removal of Saddam.

So when that's out of the way I also say you can love America, and not want any wars at the same time! Yes, it's possible!
You can also love America and dislike Bush. Yes, it IS possible!

It is possible to not like Bush AND Saddam at the same time! Yes it IS possible.. and STILL support the US and believe in it, you see, it's not the only country in the world, nor is Iraq.

No one can promise a small body count. No one can promise democracy will reach Iraq AND stay there.

Afghanistan went pretty ok, but it's not over yet. Explosions every week, people are afraid, it's far from over. Just regime change has happened, Taliban and it's fighters and supporters are still free and they're terrorising the people. Peacekeepers may control Kabul. Do they control outside? The clans are still very alive and in control and fighting each other. So not much has changed, at least yet. I hope it gets better though. This is not about pointing fingers, I'm just saying it's not 'free' country, or liberated, at least not yet. Of course this does not happen fast, it always takes time. Who can say it will work in the future? No one. Who can say it will work in Iraq? No one can promise that. It doesn't mean it shoudln't be a goal and tried.

That's all. And Yes, I am for removing Saddam. I am also for taking care of more countries with these problems, Iraq is NOT the only country. Saudi Arabia is concerning, and so is Pakistan. And many others.

And remember, wars always starts with Propaganda in both ends. Always. Who really knows what happened, maybe just few. It's just a question of who was less dirty. And that is hard to determine when all you can see is propaganda. We'll just have to wait and hope for the best resolution and little blood.

ps. You know, do you guys consider Iraqi soldiers innocent? They are soldiers yes, but what if they don't like Saddam and are forced to fight? Don't say they can always leave and refuse, you should know better.
I don't see them bad, as I don't see US soldiers bad if they for example made a surprise attack to Norway. They do what they are ordered to do. They are just pawns.

	08-10-2002 07:06									#25
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Good one Groucho.

	08-10-2002 07:15									#26
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Faded Glory and Fez liked the speech WHAT A SHOCKING SURPRISE

Bush's speech was 'good'.

What does 'good' mean?

He was able to, in a coherent way, explain the evidence that, given his preconcieved set of assumptions, explains the need to attack Iraq. For anyone who is undecided and has a. no set assumption of iraq b. has similar sets of assumptions about Iraq the speech will be seen as successful and may convince them of the president's cuase.

It did nothing for me, as I fundamentally dsagree with his set of assumptions, assumptions he has never been able to convincingly explain, specialy today:

The central one is that 9/11 changed everything. in at least 2 times, he clearly stated that the basic reason to attack was 9/11: that because terrorists attcked us so successfully then we must take any action to stop terrorists (with that definition extended to include Saddam) even without clear threat, period. Thus all his talk about Saddam and terorists (like anyone here, including people not born then, like fez, remember the Achilles Laurel!) and how he could just give weapons of mass destruction to terrorists.

Since I utterly disagree with the notion of equating state actor actions with multinational NGO actions, i don't buy the connection. If Saddam hated us so much, and was, as Bush tries to claim, not deterrable, then why hasn't he already given terrorists WMD? What, he couldn't back in 2000 but somehow he can today? Or the notion that he can blakcmail the world with 1 nuke, or even 10... we have 6000+ warhead, all as powerful or more. israel has 200, and Iraq with 10 or less, wih more primitive and less effective delivery methods, will be unble to stop him? China has 20 nukes on ICBM's that can reach the US, and hundreads of more wareads that can reach taiwan: yet we have been able to deter an attack on taiwan for 50 years, 25 against a china with nukes. He has never been able to explain why the same can't work for saddam. Ohh, and the list of attrocities- great rhetorical stiff for your average Middle America person. hardly effective against someone who has taken classes on ehtnic violence and has seen all the nice photos from Rwanda and Cambodia and endless other hellholes.

	08-10-2002 07:20									#27
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Wats this obsession with making the entire world democratic other than for moral purpose? What grounds do you have for removing Saddam? Has even the administration given firm proof Saddam is dangerous to US?

By the way if the answer to first question was moral purpose, sorry to burst the bubble, but unfourtunately world doesnt rally itself for cause of good and justice that do you really think Bush administration think Saddam is threat or perhaps there is a hidden agenda?

	08-10-2002 08:24									#28
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Watching daily show just now, they were talking about this topic... they asked market analyst Mo Rocca, about faltering economy and he simply replies. Well economy is in the dumps because blah blah blah Saddam is to blame for all this. When John stewart keeps asking questions whacky pic of saddams face keeps popping on the screen. When finally he confronts Mo, Mo defends himself by asking Jon, "well you wouln't want to jeopardize our security don't you?" and he reluctantly replies. Well no I wouldn't want that. My summary sucked. But wach it its quite funny and relevant to this topic

It would be kinda errie If we do invade Iraq. And if Bush doesn't get re-elected. Since his father lost the election for same reason (slowing economy in 1992).

	08-10-2002 08:25									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley We are enforcing no fly zones on a daily basis.

All the no-fly zones are for is to stop the Iraqis flying aircraft in the northern and southern parts of the country. Saddam is perfectly free to drive his army around down there and shoot the locals (as he did a few years ago).

	08-10-2002 08:26									#30
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Although I am still strongly opposed to the war in Iraq, on both moral and philosophical grounds as well as grounds of pragmatism, I will give Bush credit for one of his best speeches. That may not be saying much, given that Bush is hardly a legendary orator, but this may be the last time I say something relatively positive about Bush for years. So take it while ya can.