09-09-1999 12:48									#1
	Old subject: Phalanx vs. tanks Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

22.sept 1999:

Since I have seen no comments to my idea, I have decided to make a try (modpack) of my own.

As I'm not an eagle to this stuff I don't expect to have anything usefull before X-mas.

Warning: I will be stealing and borrowing all I can from all y others having it up-to-date with latest patch/powerslic/cd mod/harlan mod/tp mod and what else I find interesting. I will give credits to y all - but don't hit me, if/when I forgot to include one og two of y.

But I still is missing pics of ships from the medieval and renaissance ages.


****


Phalanx against tanks – maybe I have a solution.

I have tried two small games using several lines of the special flag: Government_type ON ALL UNITS.

I have NOT played the games to end, so I don’t know, whether the game crashes or do something ”funny” later on.

It looks like that if you or the AI changes to a government, which don’t allow the unit-type, the unit(s) simply disapper – gone – lost – out. Just as the slavers and clerics do.

I’m not 100% sure, but it looks like it works….. Hope someone will try it and tell me if I’m right or wrong.

This makes some ”exciting” situations. Cityes suddenly are undefended, loss of happiness and things like that.

I’m not able to make a complete mod - I would probably have too many misspelling around. But I know from this forum, that several of you can. Feel free to use my idea (if it works) with or without credits.

All units should have government_anarchy. The acient units also also government_tyranny. Some government_city_state, some government_monarchy and some government_theocracy. And so on for the rest of the units.

Of course loosing alle units of a special type costs lot of produktion and/or gold – but anyway. Having an army is costly. You can make the shield-cost for units cheaper then – if you like.

Now this is not really funny yet (I think).

To play like this we have to use a lot of unit-types for each ”age”. And more ages. And for governments. Maybe more improvements.


First til units: We have most of the types I can think of. You (some of you) have made them. I think we only are missing some vessel-types in the medieval and renaissance-ages and some scouts/jeeps through all the ages. Most of my suggestion are already made by you, but anyway. Here they are in no special order:

UNIT_AIGIS_CRUISER, UNIT_ARMOR (old tank), UNIT_BAZOOKA, UNIT_CARAVEL, UNIT_FRIGATE, UNIT_CATAPULT, UNIT_CATAPULT_TRIREME, UNIT_CROSSBOWMAN, UNIT_CRUISER, UNIT_ELEPHANT, UNIT_FANATICS, UNIT_GUARD, UNIT_HEAVY_TANK, UNIT_HORSEMAN, UNIT_HUNTER, UNIT_INFANTERY, UNIT_IRONCLAD, UNIT_HOWITZER,
UNIT_LIGHT_TANK (jeep?), UNIT_MEDIUM_TANK, UNIT_MOUNTED_SCOUT, UNIT_NOBLE, UNIT_RIFLEMAN, UNIT_SATELITE, UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER, UNIT_STARCRUISER, UNIT_STONESLINGER, UNIT_LANDGANGSBÅD (danish word - don’t know an english name, but is should be a cheap slow little vessel which are able to carry 1 or 2 units on shallow water), UNIT_PMV (again – don’t know the english word, it’s a cheap fast ground unit which can carry 2 units. Problem with this is, it should not be able to carry artillery/tanks/howitzers – can this be solved???).


The Ages. I think I have seen some making an extra age (Medieval? (no misspelling here I hope)). The ages could be: Stone age, Medival age, Renaissance age, Modern age, Genetic age and Diamond age).

So the governments.. I have tried to ”find” some usefull names/types and I have ”grouped” them. Each group should have some speciel advances following them up through the game.


AN GOVERNMENT_ANARCHY

MIL GOVERNMENT_TYRANNY
REP GOVERNMENT_CITY_STATE
MON GOVERNMENT_ANCIENT_KINGDOM
EMP ?? (should this exist now??)
REL ?? (should this exist now??)
DEM Not yet invented.

MIL GOVERNMENT_FEUDALISM
REP GOVERNMENT_BUREAUCRACY
MON GOVERNMENT_KINGDOM
EMP GOVERNMENT_EMPIRE
REL GOVERNMENT_THEOCRACY
DEM Not yet invented.

MIL GOVERNMENT_PEOBLES_REPUBLIC
REP GOVERNMENT_REPUBLIC
MON GOVERNMENT_ENLIGHTED_MONARCHY (Only The King knows what best)
EMP GOVERNMENT_WORLD_EMPIRE
REL ?? (Name, please).
DEM GOVERNMENT_SEMI_DEMOCRACY

MIL GOVERNMENT_FASISM
REP GOVERNMENT_COMMUNISM
MON GOVERNMENT_CONSTITUTIONAL_MONARCHY (The Queen only rules over the Prins (and the Prince (smokes a lot))).
EMP GOVERNMENT_CORPORATION
REL GOVERNMENT_FUNDAMENTALISM
DEM GOVERNMENT_MODERN_DEMOCRACY

MIL ?? (Name, please).
REP GOVERNMENT_THECNOCRACY
MON ?? (Name, please – or out??).
EMP GOVERNMENT_PLANETARY_EMPIRE
REL GOVERNMENT_ECOTOPIA
DEM GOVERNMENT_VIRTUAL_DEMOCRACY


AN=anarchy. No changes, all units should have government_type government_anarchy.

MIL=Militant. All ”normal” unit-types should be able to ”make” people happy (high values in: MAX_MARTIAL_LAW_UNITS, MARTIAL_LAW_EFFECT and AT_HOME_RADIUS (say 3 or 4 instead of 2)).

REP=Republic. They make more gold than others (high values in: GOLD_COEF).

MON=Monarchy. They make more food than others. Not sure, but I think we can use the GOV_GROWTH_RANK.

EMP=Empire. Lots of cities far away from capital without loss of happiness (high values in: EMPIRE_DISTANCE_SCALE, MIN_EMPIRE_DISTANCE, MAX_EMPIRE_DISTANCE and maybe AT_HOME_RADIUS (say 3 instead of 2)).

REL=Religious. Use improvements (maybe add church/moske or something like that to the improvements) to make people happy. It’s possible to have different values for happiness under different governments.

DEM=Democracy. Lots of science. (high values in: KNOWLEDGE_COEF). Happy people (make new improvements like parks, local stations (city-railroad or something like this – also to reduce pollution?).

Other values for the Government types have to be tweaked in different ways to balance the game.

[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited September 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by TheBirdMan (edited September 22, 1999).]

	22-09-1999 11:04									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just to get on top again

------------------
IMPORTANT!

I SPELL - LIKE HELL

	22-09-1999 17:16									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Have you checked out CD's mod pack? That resolves most of the issues you have brought up quite nicely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage you, and if you make a mod pack I'll certainly try it.

Big Dave
[This message has been edited by Big Dave (edited September 22, 1999).]

	22-09-1999 18:22									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The work from CD and Harlan and TP and several more will be included - surely.

I'll try to make it as good as possible. Supose that will take a 3-5 months (unless I get some help)

	23-09-1999 04:18									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

FWIW I thought Birdman's idea a very good one. I think, Big Dave, that what Birdman is after is to get rid of the ludicrous survival of units for millennia. I find it irritating to see an enemy army consisting of fusion tanks, space marines and…. a catapult.

Tying units to governments is a great way of eliminating this problem. Breaking ages up into:

Ancient
Medieval
Renaissance
Industrial
Modern
Genetic
Diamond

And then setting a life span of, say, two ages per unit type, we would find warriors vanishing with the renaissance, musketeers in modern, etc… Clearly, as Birdman points out, in order for this idea to be successful, each era needs a full panoply of both units and governments. Moreover, I imagine unit cost would need to be reduced overall, so that one can get some use out of them before they become obsolete.

	23-09-1999 16:40									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

YES!!! Richard.

that's excacty what I want.....

Thanks for "spelling" it for me. I have problems finding the rigth words.

	24-09-1999 17:52									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Bird Man and Richard,
My only problem with that is that I've built a unit, paid for it. Now it's going to vanish? I'd rather pay more to upgrade it. Unfortunatly I don't think that anyone has come up with a way to do that, yet.

The other thing I (and several others) would really like to see is units tied to certain civs. e.g. Greeks build hoplites, not legions, Romans build legions, not samurai, Japanese build samurai not hoplites, etc. The closest any idea I've heard so far is to give each culture a certain starting technology that is unresearchable by the other cultures. Unfortunatly the other cultures will steal it at some point. Any ideas?
Thanks,

Big Dave

	25-09-1999 19:51									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Big Dave wrote: “Bird Man and Richard,
My only problem with that is that I've built a unit, paid for it. Now it's going to vanish? I'd rather pay more to upgrade it. Unfortunately I don't think that anyone has come up with a way to do that, yet.”

Disband your units before they vanish. You get half the original construction cost back. I have a hard time seeing how one could really upgrade legions to riflemen, cavalry to fusion tanks, etc… After all, in CTP we are talking about enormous differences in technology. Just how much value can be reclaimed from horse cavalry when one is building space marines? One could sell the horse to the glue factory, melt down the sabers for a few bucks, donate the uniforms to Goodwill for a tax writeoff, but that’s about it. Effectively one is simply building a new unit.

Upgrades, IMO, are things such as the US Army’s current remanufacturing of early M1 tanks to M1A2 standard. New gun, new electronics, etc… However, at the grand strategy level of CTP, there would be no difference between M1s and M1A2s. After all, there is no difference between a Pz. I and an M1A2! Therefore, I think the ‘disband before vanish’ approach is good enough.

As for the ‘unique technology’ idea, CTP doesn’t seem to support it. At this stage, where the game came out perhaps six months ago, I don’t think it likely that we’ll see support for this idea forthcoming. After all, not even a single official scenario has been created. Perhaps CTP 2 will provide thorough scenario support. I think we are out of luck in CTP 1.

	26-09-1999 09:14									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Warriors should never become obsolete, as they represent the most basic fighting unit - humanity reduced to defending and attacking with rudimentary implements. If you sufficiently beat the crap out of a civ, I mean REALLY whack the snot out of 'em, they may be damaged past the point of producing even musketeers for defense. I understand the arguments of mixing catapults with armor divisions - that is a bit loopy. But warriors should always be available. Certain very basic-type units should remain through all ages, for worst-case scenarios.

	26-09-1999 11:29									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi ajbera

Then we do not set an obsolute advance for the Warriors. Then they can be build whenever y government allows it.

In others words: If y a.. is slidning over the ground (y HAVE to build warriors) y have to change to "low-ranging" government say city-state or something like this. Then y can build as many warriors as y like.

Other solution could be: Make new a UNIT_CITIZEN with nearly same abilities (see 1 tile, no attack only defend) as a warrior or phalanx. We could take the shape of a settler a give him "some other clothes" on. Let this unit be universal through the ages.

	26-09-1999 19:18									#11
	Support Apolyton

Hi ajbera,
Although your point about a minimum unit it valid, I think that CTP’s combat system leaves this idea too vulnerable to cheating. Since there is no kind of ‘overrun’ mechanism, in which a stack that massively overpowers its enemies may destroy them and continue moving, one could build massive numbers of warriors to bog down even the most overwhelming attack. This is the so-called ‘Wall of Flesh’ problem. Evidently, this consideration lead Activision to scrap the cow unit, as one could saturate one’ territory with cheap cows that would block an enemy’s advance.

I like the idea that a civilization in dire straights would fall back on feeble units in desperation. It would be nice if one could build “Green” units such as Volksgrenadiers as an emergency measure. These would be the antithesis of Veteran units, i.e., they suffer a penalty in combat instead of a bonus. They could be promoted to “Regular” status in the same way a “Regular” unit can be promoted to “Veteran” status. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any way to create a new status for units. Perhaps some ‘militia’ or ‘partisan’ type unit could be created to represent this situation, but one would have to be careful that any such unit would not create a unbalance WoF situation.

	28-09-1999 19:24									#12
	Suffering from ads?

Richard III,
I don't want to do that sort of micro-management. This is a strategic level game.

Don't get me wrong, I like your and Birdman's concept, I just don't like that one particular result. I'll play it and check it out, predjudices not withstanding.

Big Dave

	29-09-1999 02:58									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

BigDave wrote:
"Don't get me wrong, I like your and Birdman's concept, "

Birdman's concept. I just agree with him...

What micromanagement are you referring to? AFAICS, this idea won't have much micromanagement impact...