08-10-2002 13:43									#1
	How fair these unique units are? Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think unique units are not fairly created.For example Greek hoplite unit has an increased defence bonus of 50% according to spearman while russian cossack unit has an increased defence of 33% according to cavalry.

	08-10-2002 15:47									#2
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If the Cossacks had had a 50% defence bonus, they would have had a defence of 4,5. Or would you prefer instead a hoplite with a 33% defence bonus, so with a defence of 2, 66 ?

The bonuses are not "fair". They are finetuned to achieve a fair gamebalance and to avoid overpowered UUs.

	08-10-2002 15:53									#3
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so can u tell me what is the advantage of cossack unit?
If u start the game with Greeks u already have a defencive unit which other civs can acquire the same in middle ages.However I cannot see this advantage with cossacks.

	08-10-2002 16:29									#4
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You are right!

The UUs are not fair!

I don't have a problem with this.

If you do, you simply should not play the Russians!

BTW, I don't play the Russians, too, but that's because I don't like the expansionist trait. The cossacks are quite good in my opinion, because

1st: it is harder to get rid of them, when they start an invasion. I learned this, when the Russians once attacked me with hordes of them. Standard cavalry can quite easyly be killed by a counter attack, when they are not escorted by defensive units (musketmen). With cossacks this is much harder.

2nd: they come into play at a crucial moment. At the late medieval age/early industrial age a GA can be VERY helpful. IMHO much more than at the beginning of the ancient age as it probably will with the hoplites.

Just my opinion.

	08-10-2002 17:30									#5
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Well with the model of just giving +1 to a stat for unique units that they used, it stands to reason that ancient era UU's are going to be statistically superior to later ones

Look at it this way, at least the Russian's UU is better than the american or english one. Probally even better than india's though at least elephants look cool

	08-10-2002 17:47									#6
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The advantage of the Indian Elephant is that it does not require any special resources. So, it is as powerful as a knight, but you can build them without horses or iron.

The war elephant is a good exemple of how the bonus system works: you don't get always attack or defence bonuses, but sometimes other advantages, like resourcesles UUs. They are different and it depends on you how efficiently you use them.

	08-10-2002 19:25									#7
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I knew that about the war elephant's, Tiberius Thing is, if your india and you happen to have horses and iron (and in 4 games out of 5, I do cause by the time chilvary comes around ive taken it if I dont :P), then you really don't have an advantage over just having knights. So in theory, their great, in practice.....it rarely matters.

I was just pointing out that I've never really seen anyone try to say or imply that UU's were created equal For that matter, you could make the same case with traits (industrious vs expansionist, no contest )

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Oh and for what its worth, in my games, ive modded the elephants to have +2 hp above the knight, which makes them something of a force to be reckoned with, but not particularly overpowering (no more so than immortals and legions anyways). At one point id also given the english the longbowman as a UU and renamed the existing longbow to crossbow (I think id given the longbow +1 attack, but I forget), but that was a few installs ago

A better choice for the american UU might be the minuteman (musket upgrade, probally much cheaper as the bonus, representing that they were mostly volunteers) That or pick something from the civil war (but I can't think of anything distinctively american), since we have Abe as the pres and all

	08-10-2002 19:49									#8
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My mods:

Lon,gbow man available with feodality, since they are completely useless by the time you discover invention.

Elephant: 5/3/2
Cossack: 8/3/3

Infantry buildable with mass production so that cavalry is not obsolete too early.

It is just fair that Attack UU gets an attack bonus and not useless, ridiculous, pointless defensive or ressource bonus.
yes coassack are very powerful, but what about immortals then? They are much more powerful than cossack still.

	08-10-2002 20:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon ive modded the elephants to have +2 hp above the knight,

Extremely good idea!
I think, i will do this, too!

quote: Originally posted by Arc Cossack: 8/3/3

That's heavy! I don't want to mess with Russia in your mod!

	08-10-2002 20:14									#10
	UUs unfair? Get a bigger avatar today!

unique units are not unfair... they and each civ's specific abilities are tailored to give opportunities for strong early, middle, or late game play depending on the prefered style for each player. Anyway, you can always turn the UUs off and go for total equality among the civs.

	08-10-2002 22:43									#11
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quote: That's heavy! I don't want to mess with Russia in your mod!

It is exactly as difficult as dealing with persian immortals or iroquois mounted warrior. If you are prepared, you win, if not, you loose cities
I would turn it down to 7/3/3 tho, so that it won't be too close to marines (which a

Beside, i do better with 6/3/3 cavalry than the comp with 8/3/3 cossacks.

	08-10-2002 23:16									#12
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Don't play with unique units. I never do. That way, everyone's on a level playing field from the start and throughout the game.

	09-10-2002 04:12									#13
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The unique units are very much unbalanced and anyone who knows anything about math or strategy games _should_ understand this. However I play with UU's on, they are cool.

	09-10-2002 04:23									#14
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UUs are what makes the game fun. If you turn of civ specific traits, It's just like boring ol' Civ2. No point of being a certain civ unless you like the name or something.

	09-10-2002 04:43									#15
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I play with them on (heck I ussually even add more if I play alot in the span of a short time anyways ), and I was never under the impression that they were "fair", but neither is life so who cares Least we can mod them to something we like

	09-10-2002 06:20									#16
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Always play on the same scenario map, at the same starting position;
turn off Civ traits.
--> Get bored with Civ3 real quick as the games have little variety.

The UU's and the different civ traits, along with random maps makes for great replay value. In addition, I have come to favor being RANDOM civ!

	09-10-2002 06:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe In addition, I have come to favor being RANDOM civ!

That's my favorite method. It keeps me on my toes as I have to learn the strengths (and weaknesses) of each team.