09-10-2002 04:45									#1
	Emergency cabinet meeting Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok I guess you've all had a look at the the save and can see the situation with arabela. We have spices in the city and aren trading them around. However it is apparent that the chance of a culture flip to england is very likely given the amount of squares occupied by england and the proximity to london.

It goes w/o saying that should we loose the city and the spices our reputation would be permenatly damaged to the point where we could no longer trade to other civs in GPT. Such a situation would IMHO be worse than loosing our four core cities or even worse than loosing Ubergorsk.

The situation is grave IMO all we can do is sit and wait untill we can grow arabalas culture or wait out the 20 turns.

However in the meantime we must act to lessen the chance of a culture flip. All ministers must concentrate on this as it is so pressing a matter.

Arabela is currenlty a 5 with pretty much all of its surrounding squares being english and their capital only 1 city away.

In the last chat a temple was rushed there and 2 wkrs were moved into the city so as to give us a chance to get WLTK day.

I call on all ministers and in particular the CP to draw up a course of action regarding the Arabela situation.

I'm not sure what the requirements are for WLTK day all I know is that it lessens the chance of a flip. All ministers and citizens are called upon to save the city from a flip. Even a slight chance that the city could flip is too much.

opd

	09-10-2002 04:47									#2
	Got spare money?

we must build 10 knights and send them there.

	09-10-2002 04:56									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sounds like you've already done everything you can to keep it from flipping.

We could station (and risk) a large number of military units there, or sack London. Neither of these seem like viable options.

We could rush another culture producing structure, like a Library.

Diplomatically, I'll be very dissapointed if the city flips and we lose the luxury and trades. It's not as bad as losing Ubergorsk, though. Fear not. We have a strong culture. Of course, it would help if we got our capital/FP situation established.

--Togas

	09-10-2002 05:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Arbela is 9 squares away from London. Arbela has a population of 5, so just bringing it up to 6 will give it WLKD. We have a Temple there and we can Rush a Library and then a Cathedral. We shouldn't outright but them without atleast one turn each of production as the cost is doubled when no production has been done on it at all. It has a culture of 2 now and will expand in 4 turns. It will expand in three ONLY if we rush the library now, but we should still wait and rush next turn. With the three Culture producing Improvements, it should get to 100 (level 3) in a fairly quick time. Also, by that time, it should have some of our Citizens helping to keep it with us.

E_T

	09-10-2002 05:16									#5
	Remove this text

We should be able to rush another culture (cathedral) buiding there, instead of rushing a marketplace someplace else, this would cost some decent amount of lytons, but it's worth it.

And as Uber said, we should garrison as much units as we can, although if the city defects, we lose them, the damage of losing it far excels the loss of units.

	09-10-2002 05:32									#6
	Got spare money?

I can tell you all now the the financial situation in our nation is very tight; it's not that we're poor, it's that there are many requests (urgent or not, depending on who you ask) all across the board. Upon looking at the save, there is however enough cause for, and enough money to spare, rushing the library in Arbela. That's the MoE stance on this matter; ask me later about a cathedral

	09-10-2002 05:36									#7
	Got spare money?

The problem wiht the city is that even with high culture it will still have some square taken by the english as there cities are so close. Chartes only had three squares of ours and was about the same distance to our capital. Although this should not discourade us from rushing culture although not from scratch.

good thread on flipping

	09-10-2002 06:17									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Chartres flipped because out culture is TITANIC compared to France. Our culture is much larger than England's. Rush a Cathedral and station some troops there.

Building Knights to sit and collect dust seems to be a waste of military strength though. Any military unit should work.

A temple and 'Sistined' cathedral will definitely put it in a We Love OPD Day once it is size 6.

	09-10-2002 06:35									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Libraries and Cathedrals produce the sme amount of culture and cost the same to rush, but if we were to wait one turn then rush, I would say Cathedral as if we want WLTK day, it also makes 6 pop content.

Rushing after one turn of production is a must.

	09-10-2002 06:53									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Now, this is really an emergency!


As an exception, I will advise you to go for UberKrux suggestion.
Send 10 knights. Have 20 in backup. Don't forget pikers!

I am not bloodthirsty, but flipping really pisses me off...

	09-10-2002 07:32									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

All 5 that are now in the city are all very Happy, so the sixth shouldn't have any problems. Rushing a Cathedral would be good, as we will be going to Republic shortly. Then we can rush a Library there as soon as the MoE releases the funds.

[tongue in cheek]
We can always take Oxford & Hastings away from the English, then there wouldn't be anymore English cultural pressure on Arbela.
[/tongue]

E_T

	09-10-2002 07:39									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by E_T We can always take Oxford & Hastings away from the English, then there wouldn't be anymore English cultural pressure on Arbela.

Yes, this is the best solution.

	09-10-2002 08:42									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by E_T Arbela is 9 squares away from London. Arbela has a population of 5, so just bringing it up to 6 will give it WLKD. We have a Temple there and we can Rush a Library and then a Cathedral. We shouldn't outright but them without atleast one turn each of production as the cost is doubled when no production has been done on it at all. It has a culture of 2 now and will expand in 4 turns. It will expand in three ONLY if we rush the library now, but we should still wait and rush next turn. With the three Culture producing Improvements, it should get to 100 (level 3) in a fairly quick time. Also, by that time, it should have some of our Citizens helping to keep it with us. E_T

Adding 1 pop should be done immediately with a [native] worker if that will speed the increase the WLKD will halve the likelihood of flipping. I'm not sure if there have been in changes to the culture flipping equation but the change in likelhood of flipping in the eqaution I saw only changed when the new civs culture in the city exeeded the old culture's in the city again beeing halved. Since the computer probably never built a cultural inprovement there, one improvemrnt willl sufficece. If Apolonia is religious but not scientific I'd build a temple, else build a library. This should buy enough time to eat America, burp, then take Hastings & York and sack London.

	09-10-2002 09:05									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX we must build 10 knights and send them there.

Do we have some leftover spearmen & warriors to garrison Arabela?

	09-10-2002 10:02									#15
	Tired of ads?

We can use the forces near that area to help. We could build some wc's and send them there until they are upgraded. Also is the talk of attacking england real, if so I'll present my plan for "Operation Royalty Fall aka "BYE BYE LIZ". As SMC its my job to have have such a plan on short notice. Personally I would discourage such an attack however if we need to station large # of troops in that area then we might as well attack. the plan for the record is for a 5knight attack on oxford and another 5 knight attack on Coventry(to get another wine) and ofcourse another 5knight attack on hastings, if we could wait until we have 20knights a10knight force could attack hastings and then york(the attack would end when the english offered peace, this is NOT a war of conquest). This attack would leaves us with 3 border cities in the east as opposed to 5 we now have(mainly oxford forces a larger defense of tarsus and muncie).
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 09-10-2002 at 10:11

	09-10-2002 10:36									#16
	Support Apolyton

Add 1 pop and trigger WLKD. Rush the lib this turn after disbanding the second worker. Garrison with 5 units and there should be no flip after the danger period of 1 or 2 turns is past.

T0. 2 culture. Now. Join 1 worker. Disband the other. Rush Lib.
T1. 7 culture. Safer with 5 garrison.
T2. 12 culture. Borders expand. Safe with 5 garrison.

According to the threads, I would not leave less than 5 units once the safe period is entered. Our culture is not that much greater than theirs (as a multiple) and the difference in the distances to capitols is extreme.

You can rush the Lib in T0 by disbanding one of the workers. That gets the start on shields to lessen the cost of rushing.

Also, put all population in excess of needed food production to work as tax collectors. i know this is not in the discussed formulas, but I have never lost a city to a flip in any turn that all citizens were set to specialists (starving down to 1 pop). Take it for what it's worth. It's hopelessly corrupt, so there is nothing to lose before the FP is built and a courthouse is completed anyway. With some tax collectors, no Cathedral is required for WLKD even if some war weariness creeps in.

Nothing is gonna stop that sucker from going on T1 if the dice are against us.

	09-10-2002 10:49									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh. And give Liz a RoP agreement. The closer we are diplomatically, the more likely she will reject the city should it flip. It does happen.

I don't see what the English would do with a RoP that would hurt us. Do you?

	09-10-2002 17:17									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

In terms of taking over English cities... we should wait until the treaties we have with them are up for re-negotiation and then peaceful end them or else we'll end up messing up our reputation just as much as if we lost the spices...

	09-10-2002 17:48									#19
	Put an end to popups!

A RoP with England makes me nervous... it gives us no advantage whatsoever and gives them a big one, for what it's worth.

As for rushing, whichever you prefer, Library of Cathedral, will be rushed; but if you want the second one (i.e., whichever one you don't choose now) I'll have to wait and see how the funds are at that point.

	09-10-2002 17:53									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

First off RoPs in Civ3 are eternal. They do not end at 20 turns, they only end when one side or the other declares war which means we will NEVER be able to go to war with England unless we are willing to take a rep hit.

I'm am always against RoPs unless they are crucial for some kind of warfare.

	09-10-2002 18:55									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I tried the formula: {[(N+S)xCxHxR]-T}/D
(from the culture flip thread)

N = # foreign citizens (5)
S = # city squares occupied by the English culture (9)
C = Culture factor (assumed to be 1 in this case)
H = Happiness factor (0.5 if we get WLTKD)
R = Culture ratio to the English (approx. 0.89 )
T = Number of troops in Arbela (3)
D = Capital distance factor ([9/28]x2000, no idea if this is correct!)

Got the value 0.0064!
It just sounds too low... Thoughts, anyone?

Btw, when Arbelas cultural borders expand we should get back a few squares (maybe 5) making the value even lower.

What I lack in the equation is a factor for the governments. Isn't it supposed to be easier to flip a city with a less advanced government?

	09-10-2002 19:11									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm not overly worried about it.

Is there a chance it would flip, yes.

Is it a reasonable chance, no it's highly unlikely.

	09-10-2002 22:16									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb First off RoPs in Civ3 are eternal. They do not end at 20 turns, they only end when one side or the other declares war which means we will NEVER be able to go to war with England unless we are willing to take a rep hit.

That would be incorrect. After 20 turns the deal may be cancelled in the negotiation window.

	09-10-2002 22:23									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

AAMOF, in many cases the Civ concerned will contact you on turn 20 to renegotiate...

	09-10-2002 23:58									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess nobody wants to bash Lizzy after her peace treaty is up, though I did rename to operation "take out bad Elizabeth" or ToBe. So the question is ToBE or not ToBe. Though in addition to protecting arbela it would get us another lux(wine) to trade.
Aggie

	10-10-2002 00:10									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Bashing Lizzy would be fine by me. It will be necessary in the long run if we want to let that city grow. There is too much English influence around it.

I only mentioned the RoP if OPD and Togas are especially worried about the flip in turn 1. It might make a difference. Not very likely, but possible.

	10-10-2002 00:40									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Aggie ...though I did rename to operation "take out bad Elizabeth" or ToBe. So the question is ToBE or not ToBe... Aggie

(Arnelos groans)

	10-10-2002 04:08									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am wondering where the other candidates for CP are posting.

(I would rush a library, but after 2-3 turns of shields have built up. It will not flip immediatly, and if we keep the culture reasonably high, we should be fine. Glad the temple was purchased last turn. After this purchase, start a courthouse please, then a cathedral).