13-10-2002 22:02									#31
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I have to agree with you vondrack,although I actually like to play the warmonger game I also like to be the builder and there is no way to get the GL leader benefits from peacetime.

Im not sure if Im right here but I think its more often the case from my experience that you get GL more often when you are the aggressor during an invasion than when defending your homeland from an enemy,though I have got them from defense but very rarely.Any thoughts anybody?

I fondly remember the day I got my copy of the much anticipated Civ3,I rushed home and set about devouring the manual (not literally)and was impressed with all the new ways to play and win especially through peacful gameplay.

There are lots of intracacies built into this game making it harder to be the warmonger ie reputation,strategic and luxury resouces and much more but as it stands now with the GL setup the warmonger has an unfair advantage that if you want you must emulate.

I can even remember the manual talking about how the developers wanted to make it harder to win by warmongering.I have to say that on the harder levels I find it necessary to kick ass from the off in order to survive.

	13-10-2002 22:09									#32
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Okay there are a lot of great ideas flooding in now.

I realize you cannot get a GL from attacking barbs, but maybe they should change the 'Barbarian Uprising' so that they all come from a certain barbarian camp, more heavily guarded, that doesn't just pump out one large stint of barbs but lots continually, and you have a chance of getting a GL from sacking their HQ.

Again, feats like in CTP2 are a great idea, I think we can almost all agree on that one.

I'm still in big favor of three distinct types of GLs ...

Military GL
Chance to be produced by Elite unit military victory as now. Can be used only to create an army OR join a city to produce extra shield output in City Square and reduce corruption of home city.

Peaceful GL
Chance to be produced if city is captured by Culture or if a Feat is completed. Can be used to permanently increase the Happiness, Science output or Culture rating of its home city (city in which it joins).

Naval GL
Chance to be produced by Elite naval unit's military victory. Can be used only to rush oceanic Great Wonders (Lighthouse, Magellan's).

I really think we should rule out ENTIRELY the ability of a GL to create a wonder. Maybe only a small wonder or one more specific? Perhaps a military GL can rush Sun Tzu's Academy, or maybe a Peaceful one could rush Newton's like the Naval ones... take all the wonders and split them up?

Or is that getting too complicated ... mebbe

Still, Can nobody mod this in???

Cheers
~Thadalex

	14-10-2002 02:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander Military GL Chance to be produced by Elite unit military victory as now. Can be used only to create an army OR join a city to produce extra shield output in City Square and reduce corruption of home city.

I would vote for the corruption+waste reduction bonus only. This would seem logical to me - a strong, respectable individual with a military background would enforce laws in such a way that the whole city economy would do better.

quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander Peaceful GL Chance to be produced if city is captured by Culture or if a Feat is completed. Can be used to permanently increase the Happiness, Science output or Culture rating of its home city (city in which it joins).

I would not go for the city flip to be the trigger... it is already a great advantage if one acquires a city through culture flipping. Getting a leader as an added bonus seems too much... "Feats" would be great, but I doubt they could easily be added within the current framework of the game.

There is only one thing I can think of that could be added quite easily and that would make some sense... What about this: every turn, there would be a certain probability that a peaceful great leader emerges in the city with the highest scientific, commercial, or shield output in the whole world (there would be three types of peaceful leaders: scientific, commercial/economic, and... hmm... something like engineers or inventors? doesn't really matter what you call them... there might be a fourth category, "cultural" leaders, tied to the current cultural output of cities). The probability of a peaceful great leader "birth" would probably have to consist of two parts, one fixed, the other "dynamic":

PpeaGL = Pfix + Pdyn

The fixed (or constant) part, Pfix, would guarantee there would be at least some great leaders even in a totally peaceful game, the dynamic part would take care of balancing the number of military and peaceful leaders in a given game.

Pfix = GLmin / Ttotal

legend:
GLmin ... desired minimum number of great leaders per game (might depend on the number of civs in the game, the size of the map or whatever... but would be constant throughout the whole game)
Ttotal ... total number of turns from 4000BC to 2050AD (is it 540?)

The dynamic part, Pdyn, would be calculated every turn and would be aimed at giving the world approximately as many peaceful leaders as military ones from 4000BC to 2050AD (again, on average, of course):

Pdyn = (milGL / T * Ttotal - peaGL) / (Ttotal - T)

legend:
T .... current turn number
milGL ... number of military leaders already generated
peaGL ... number of peaceful leaders already generated

If you look at the dynamic formula, you can see that (milGL / T * Ttotal) sort of "estimates" (by extrapolation) how many military great leaders there will be in the current game. The numerator as a whole calculates how many more/less peaceful leaders there should be till 2050 AD to have about the same number of military and peaceful leaders in 2050 AD. The rest of the formula, "/ (T - Ttotal)", simply determines the peaceful leader birth probability that should be used to (theoretically) balance the leader numbers at 2050 AD.

The dynamic part could be positive (peaceful leaders being outnumbered by military ones at the moment) or negative (err... you get the idea), thus adjusting the basic fixed probability Pfix up or down.

After rolling a dice determining whether there would be a peaceful leader born or not (see the formulas above), another dice would be rolled to determine what kind of a peaceful leader should be born. This dice could be 3-sided (science, commerce, production) or 4-sided (add culture).

If this was implemented, it would actually make sense to build and maintain cities that would be scientific, production, and/or commercial centres, as such centres would be birthplaces to peaceful great leaders. Exploits should be prevented by the fact that the turns used to choose the world's best cities would be randomly determined based on the probability formula. The simple math behind would make sure builder players would have about the same chances to get great leaders as warmongers. This would also encourage growing cities past 20 citizens and using citizens as specialists... which is currently considered useless by elite players (at least that's my impression...).

All this assuming GLs would be stripped of their ability to hurry improvements and wonders. They could only be "joined" to cities, providing a sci/com/prod bonus (according to the leader "type"). Whether the bonus should be permanent or temporary, I'm not sure. Temporary (or gradually diminishing) bonus seems to follow reality a bit closer, while permanent makes leaders more valuable and perhaps more fun...

quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander Naval GL Chance to be produced by Elite naval unit's military victory. Can be used only to rush oceanic Great Wonders (Lighthouse, Magellan's).

I would suggest making Naval leaders simply one variation of Military leaders. They would be able to create Naval Armies or they could be joined to coastal cities for a corruption/waste bonus. Naval Leaders could move to coastal, sea, ocean, and coastal city tiles only. No wonder rushing, please.

quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander I really think we should rule out ENTIRELY the ability of a GL to create a wonder. Maybe only a small wonder or one more specific? Perhaps a military GL can rush Sun Tzu's Academy, or maybe a Peaceful one could rush Newton's like the Naval ones... take all the wonders and split them up?

I would vote for entirely stripping their rushing abilities. Make them less powerful (basically, just nice bonuses), but at the same time a less unbalancing factor in the game.

Errr... Geeze, is there anyone actually interested in the maths? Sorry for the lengthy and perhaps boring post...

	14-10-2002 02:45									#34
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i don't know if any of the other wonders were made because of war, but i think the Colossuss on Rhodes island was created because Rodes managed to stop an invasion, I think!
Thats the only wonder that i can thing of that was created because of war!

The Great wall on the other hand was to protect from war! So it was kinda made for war!

	14-10-2002 03:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by HazieDaVampire Thats the only wonder that i can thing of that was created because of war!

Manhattan Project?

	14-10-2002 04:00									#36
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The UN is due in large part to having too many wars.

	14-10-2002 04:58									#37
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Just allow GL's to be built perhaps, for each trigger for the GL.

Or a GREAT way would be to give you a great Leader if you are at peace with everyone, but only every 100 turns maybe. these leaders would only give 300 production to a build, or an army though giving more tech research would be best for peaceful leaders.

Having triggeres would be good.. like :
the first person to get 2500 gold, first person to get 5000, 10000 etc,
First person to Get philosophy,
first person to get Scientific method. Everyone would get a GL at millitary tradition maybe.
Explorers could make leaders some how.. if they explore 300 blank squares they make a leader.

If we have an events system manager we could make that produce GL triggers.

Finally : What about the greatest city every 500 years gets a GL.. would make some use of the Great cities screen.
We need a Naval Nelson leader!

	14-10-2002 12:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Errr... Geeze, is there anyone actually interested in the maths? Sorry for the lengthy and perhaps boring post...

I consider myself having a technical and analytical thinking, but I just wasn't able to convince my mind to comprehend your formula

Seriously now, I agree with many of the previous ideas.
To add some of my own ideas and also to summarize a bit:

Military GL
- Chance to be produced by Elite unit military victory as now.
- Can be used to create an army
- Being held in a city would decrease corruption and waste in that city
- Could hurry a military great or small wonder (Great Wall, Manhattan Project, Military Acadamy, Pentagon, etc)

Naval GL
- Chance to be produced by Elite naval units
- Can be used to create a naval army
- Being held in a coastal city would decrease corruption and waste in that city
- Could hurry naval great or small wonder (Lighthouse, Magellan’s Voyage)

Scientific, Commercial, Production or Cultural GL
- Chance to be produced: (there are several ideas here that look good)
Every turn, there would be a certain probability that a peaceful great leader emerges ...
1. ...in the city with the highest scientific, commercial, or shield output in the whole world. The probability of a peaceful great leader "birth" would be calculated with a complicated formula (see Vondrack’s post)
2: same as 1, with “civ” instead of “city” (the civ with the highest ...)
3. ... after building a fixed number of a specific type of improvements (five universities or five banks or five factories, etc)
4 ... after certain first-time discoveries (first time discovery of philosophy, or economics, and so on)
5 ... after certain first-time achievements (first library in the world, first university, first marketplace, first factory)
6 ... in any city that has been celebrating WLTwhateverDays for at least x turns
- Being held in a city would increase the science, commerce, production or culture output of that city, accordingly
- Could hurry a great or small wonder, but only the proper type of wonder (so Scientific GL could hurry the Great Library, Copernicus, SETI; Commercial GL the Colossus, Adam Smith, Wall Street; Production GL the Iron Works, etc. The Cultural GL is a bit tricky, because there are no “culture” flags for wonders, so I’d associate them with happiness wonders: Sistine, JS Bach’s, etc)

Any GL, if not used to hurry a wonder, would automatically die after 20 turns.

	14-10-2002 14:06									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I consider myself having a technical and analytical thinking, but I just wasn't able to convince my mind to comprehend your formula

Oh, well...

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius - Being held in a city...

I added the boldface myself... I am not sure if just keeping one's leader in a city should do the trick. That would mean the current one-leader-at-any-moment limit would have to be waived... I would prefer having to "join" leaders into cities permanently... also because of I would prefer if leaders added a permanent bonus to a city, not just a 20-turn bonus as you suggest at the end of your post (but I do understand your reasons for proposing so).

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 1. ...in the city with the highest scientific, commercial, or shield output in the whole world. The probability of a peaceful great leader "birth" would be calculated with a complicated formula (see Vondrack’s post) 2: same as 1, with “civ” instead of “city” (the civ with the highest ...)

My reason for choosing a "city" instead of a "civ" was to give a chance to small civs that focus on developing flourishing cities insted of expanding ad nauseam (which is basically the warmonger path). But "civ" could be fine, too, if we choose a different criterium like "Literacy", "Desease" etc... at least, the demographics screen would finally become more than just eye candy...

	14-10-2002 15:46									#40
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack at least, the demographics screen would finally become more than just eye candy...

My thoughts exactly. The same with the top5 cities screen.
I think it could work:
1. separately: the civ or the city could trigger separately the birth of a GL
or
2. together: having the best civ and the best city (in a certain area: science, culture, etc) would double your chances for a GL.

It could be any of these or something else. We're playing with new ideas here, not finetuning.

quote: I am not sure if just keeping one's leader in a city should do the trick. I would prefer having to "join" leaders into cities permanently... also because of I would prefer if leaders added a permanent bonus to a city, not just a 20-turn bonus

I thought that adding a leader to a city to produce a bonus for an unlimited time is a bit to much of an advantage.
Despite my objections, I have no problems with your suggestion, I think it's a useable one, too. I just like mine more because holding the GL in a city for 20 turns gives you the possibility to use it later to hurry a wonder; in the same time, forcing the GL to die after a number of turns, eliminates a little from the terrible advantage of rushing a wonder.

I think both solutions are workable, though. Again, it's not finetuning, so we should keep both ideas as possible solutions, unless one of them is proved to be completely undoable (?what an ugly word, but I don't remember other with the same meaning ; I should have continued my english lessons )

Should I rewrite my summary accordingly or are there other ideas/objections/corrections/amendments ?

	14-10-2002 15:49									#41
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Off topic:

quote: undoable (?what an ugly word, but I don't remember other with the same meaning)

I found it:
unachievable or unrealizable

	14-10-2002 16:23									#42
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Some interesting ideas here - for Civ4!

Instead of completely removing the ability to rush a Wonder, why not reduce the rush factor (e.g. reduce by 1/3 or half the time to create a Wonder). Just a thought.

	14-10-2002 21:24									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Destroyer Manhattan Project?

I didn't think that far up the line,
and wasn't manhattan project somthing created to harnice nuclear power and then changed to making a nuke.

	18-10-2002 21:50									#44
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quote: Originally posted by HazieDaVampire I didn't think that far up the line, and wasn't manhattan project somthing created to harnice nuclear power and then changed to making a nuke.

You are partly correct ... the name of the project at Large was the Manhattan Project and was to harness nuclear power and see what could be done with it. Once they realized its bomb-making capabilities they relocated the 'nuke' research/creation branch to Montreal and named it the Montreal Project (but as a whole, its simply the Manhattan Project).

Cheers
~Thadalex

	18-10-2002 22:04									#45
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I have to address this topic because I play almost exclusively as either America (builder) or Romans (warmonger).

When I play as America, by the Middle Age I can get build wonders in 12-15 turns, and since I have a tech advantage as well, the AI won't catch up to me.

When you play as militaristic, really your biggest advantage in the game practically requires you to be warmongering. It makes no sense to sit there and be peaceful. Great Leaders offset your opponent's advantage by allowing you to build Wonders just as fast as they can.

	05-11-2002 16:29									#46
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How about, every time you change your gov, you might get a GL? Maybe max three or something? This has to do with revolutions and Guevara's and Lenin's and such.

	05-11-2002 17:25									#47
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I like the peaceful leaders idea, it certainly makes more sense to my peacenik self but Hail Ceasar! brought up a good point too. Anyone want to respond, the idea of agreeing with a warmonger is upsetting my stomach.

Why the emphasis on leaders, they're cool, definately nice when one pops up, adds alot to the game but this thread would have em pop up all over the place. I think the rarer the better, so you really enjoy em when you see em.

Would love to see some bonuses for otherwise pointless achievements in the game.

-First to make contact with every civ! some sort of trade bonus, maybe an extra luxury pops up in your land, or your cities just get an extra smilie.

-First City to have every improvement or any city to have every improvement? Less corruption or no unhappies? goes away anytime there is another improvement to make.

-First to get every luxury(just having every luxury is enough of a bonus IMO) You get to create some minor wonder? Macy's? Who knows.

I love the Iron Works. Civ needs more things like this, then again, too many and it gets sort of ridiculous? I don't know.

	05-11-2002 17:28									#48
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First civ to go into Monarchy, Republic, Demo and Communism definately deserves a leader or something.

Though shouldn't be able to get a bonus like this more then once in a game. Otherwise it may just be a race to change to all forms of government.

	05-11-2002 17:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 I like the peaceful leaders idea, it certainly makes more sense to my peacenik self but Hail Ceasar! brought up a good point too. Anyone want to respond, the idea of agreeing with a warmonger is upsetting my stomach. Why the emphasis on leaders, they're cool, definately nice when one pops up, adds alot to the game but this thread would have em pop up all over the place. I think the rarer the better, so you really enjoy em when you see em.

I can't speak for others, but my idea was based on the assumption that leaders would be less powerful than now (most importantly stripped of their GW building capabilities), but more common to both warmongers and builders. Warmongers would get leaders adding to their military power, builders would get leaders adding to their economic, scientific, or production power. More diversity, more specialization...

As it is now, the warmogering path is way too tempting... you get more land, you deny this land to your opponents, plus you get leaders that allow you to finish wonders in one turn. That's too much... what's left to the builders? I guess without leaders being able to hurry wonders, we would see MUCH less warmongers here...

	05-11-2002 23:13									#50
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 First civ to go into Monarchy, Republic, Demo and Communism definately deserves a leader or something. Though shouldn't be able to get a bonus like this more then once in a game. Otherwise it may just be a race to change to all forms of government.

Won't that just be giving a free leader to the AI at the higher levels? How about an adjustment, where all civs have to have the tech to switch to a given form, before the leader is awarded?

	05-11-2002 23:26									#51
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After Vondrack very friendly made me aware of this thread, I would like to add my Idea (from that, hm, other thread) and some extra comments:

quote: Every time you build something in your cities there should be a small chance of creating a GL. This chance should be larger the more shields used for the project, so that the chance is much greater when finishing a wonder than when finishing a spearman. Every time a worker finishes his work on a tile there should be a small chance of creating a GL. Again the tougher the effort the higher the chance should be. Chopping down jungle should give a greater chance than building road on plains.

Perhaps only one of those should be present, but I like the diversity.

quote: Now this has to be playtested well, because there would be an advantage to the builder in this. The GLs would turn up inside your own cities or close to them, whereas the warmongers GL often turns up in enemy territory and must be escorted home, which is both risky and timeconsuming. This means the builder should probably not get quite as many GLs as the warmonger. And perhaps there should be a moddifier to lower the chance as the empire gets bigger, so that an empire ten times bigger gets perhaps 3 times as many GLs. Again the trouble would be to get it balanched so that warmongers aren't left totally in the dust, but still make it so that warmongers can't build like a builder because of his GLs from war. Oh, yes: If this is done please make the chances editable in the editor, and likewise with the chance of getting a GL from an Elite unit in war. That way people can make these chances fit there view of the world. Or abandon them altogether. I just love options! (Perhaps I should make that sentence my motto ) I should say that I have experimented with making Leaders buildable (the obvious solution I thought), but alas the AI dosn't seem to build any, so that whould just turn out to be a human-player advantage. Perhaps a Firaxian could comment on that?

I definately like many of the other Ideas in this thread. I would love to have a GL appear with the first sail-around-the-globe, when the first civ discovers a certain tech or when any civ builds its tenth university.

But I fear that it will be too big a change to make it in civ3. The current way to make a GL is very simple. I believe that the mechanism for the creation of a peacefull GL most be equally simple to make it in the game.

IMHO the above suggestions are such simple and easily implementable mechanisms.

Since there are surely someone out there who disagree I eagerly await your comments .


By the way, we have a field in the editor to set the unit created from elite military victories. We should have a different field for the unit created as peacefull GL. This would enable us to differentiate like Vondrack proposes, so that warmongers becomes better warmongers and builders become better builders.

	06-11-2002 00:21									#52
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Alot of these ideas are good, but a little to complicated.. It`d be like getting GL`s would be a game in theyre own

Land Based Great Leaders...
I agree that these should not be used to rush wonders, it seems very unrealistic to me. They should be able to create armies, and i think thats it. Expanding anymore on this would make an already powerful unit outweigh the other kinds of GL`s.
If there was to be a Naval great Leader as well, than i think the name for this one must be changed from 'military GL' to something else, IE: Land Army GL, whatever.


Naval Great Leaders...
We all know that Naval warfare needs desperatly to be expanded upon. This would add to that somewhat.
I dont think they should be able to create 'naval armies', not only is the name wrong But it would be to much like a normal Land Based GL. But, if there were Naval GL`s, why wouldnt there be Air Force GL`s? This adds to the complication but i certaintly like the idea.. i just don`t know how it would be worked out.
Maybe the first Civ to settle a colony on a continent noone has explored yet could get a GL, call it Colombus or something. Im sure that idea can be expanded upon.

Peaceful Great Leaders...
These are a VERY good idea. Instead of having a Land Based GL fortify in a city and decrease waste+corruption, maybe a Peaceful GL should do that? Like a police force. The Prerequisite could be having a Courthouse and a Police Office (i dont know what its called in-game, but it comes with the Communism tech). This idea as well could be worked upon.

Government Great Leaders...
Heres one that i think NEEDS to be put in. I dont know if it is just me, but i think youre form of government should have a bigger impact in-game. An example for Communist Gl would be if you have one of the largest standing ground armies while under this Government, youd get Lenin, or whatever. Just for examples. I think these are all good ideas.

	06-11-2002 21:59									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Won't that just be giving a free leader to the AI at the higher levels? How about an adjustment, where all civs have to have the tech to switch to a given form, before the leader is awarded?

Not necessarily, aren't most governments tech dead-ends anyway? Besides, the same could be said for any number of these suggestions. Perhaps though there could be a limitation built in too. Changing out of the government after being the first to get it brings about some sort of penalty, huge ideological let-down. Course now we're getting waaaay too complicated.

	06-11-2002 22:43									#54
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I'm glad so many people agree with me ... I never though this thread would take off like it has!

Although we still need someone to mod them in ...

Cheers
~Thadalex

	07-11-2002 16:40									#55
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quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander I'm glad so many people agree with me ... I never though this thread would take off like it has! Although we still need someone to mod them in ... Cheers ~Thadalex

I'm afraid modding is not enough. Changes to the game must be done no matter what kind of non-military leaders we would like.

	08-11-2002 01:10									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Firebird I'm afraid modding is not enough. Changes to the game must be done no matter what kind of non-military leaders we would like.

Okay I'll rephrase ... We still need someone to change the game before we can add them in

Oh well ...

Cheers
~Thadalex