09-10-2002 08:36									#1
	Great Leaders only from war? I don't think so ... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hey all

I just wanted to drop my two cents on something I've been thinking about. You can only get great leaders from war. Does that seem right to everyone ???

If you want a peaceful game you can't get great leaders (virtually ... lest you have horse shoes up your @$$) and I find this a hindrance for peace-lovers like myself. The way I see it, you play war and you can conquer cities and get great leaders to build wonders like Newton's University, The Hanging Gardens or the Sistine Chapel (just as random examples) to help you declare more war, whereas these are wonders that would fit best in the image of a peaceful, scientific civ.

It just doesn't seem right.

What I wish for this christmas is a way for Peace oriented civs to get great leaders (a job for you wonderful modders out there .. keep up the great work!). Have it based on the culture of a city or maybe when you enter a Golden Age from wonder construction... or if you're the first to enter a new age maybe. It could be any number of reasons really.

Lets not forget that not all great leaders in history were warmongers. I find it hard to imagine a great general created by war founding a wonder of beauty (although i'm sure to get evil replies to this one).

So here's my big conclusion. If you get a great leader in a War, then he can only become an Army. If you generate a great leader in a Peaceful way (which i hope to have somehow) then that leader can hurry construction on a wonder (or whatever) only.

But I'm just thinking out loud really... what do you guys think?

Cheers
~Thadalex

	09-10-2002 09:06									#2
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Yeah, I definently think you should be able to get GLs while at peace. I've thrown around a few ideas like:

The first civ to circumnavigate the world gets a GL.
The first civ to build an airplane gets a GL.
The first civ to have 10 Universities gets a GL.

...and there should be more ways too.

	09-10-2002 09:16									#3
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Well great military leaders can inspire men to increase their efforts and get things build sooner. But I have no problem is some reasonable ways were introduced.

	09-10-2002 10:01									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well great military leaders can inspire men to increase their efforts and get things build sooner. But I have no problem is some reasonable ways were introduced.

Although I agree with you, I just want to point out that it doesn't take war to inspire mankind to do great things.

Also, I like Carver's ideas. The circumnavigate the world one also makes me think about giving the Magellan's voyage wonder another prerequisite: The advance plus circumnavigation of the globe.

I think adding more bonuses and wonders (small or great) to players for being the first to do certain things in the game would spice it up a lot. In all honesty, I'm getting quite bored moving units around the map... its getting almost too repetitive (but don't get me wrong, I still play civ3 more than any other game i own).

And just as an aside, I wish they added more "Unconventional Warfare" unite like those in CTP... they were (other than the graphics at the time) the only thing that drew me to CTP more than Civ2. I still play CTP once in a while to basically re-energize myself... playing in the future and a change of pace.

But not i'm really off topic so i'll shut my pie hole

Cheers
~Thadalex

	09-10-2002 10:01									#5
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This disscussion has been had before...but anyway...

Yes, getting great leaders only from war, is yet another way the game encourages you to be war-mongering.

	09-10-2002 10:36									#6
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You can easily mod the Leader unit so that it can only be used to create Armies. There's no way to have anything other than elite victories or goody huts generate units AFAIK.

	09-10-2002 11:01									#7
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Given time and a workable mechanic for them to be created I am sure that peaceful leaders would have been included in the game. Deadlines had to be met and any mechanics for their creation did not work out to satisfaction, so it didn't happen.

In other words, it is a better game with their absence. Maybe next time (civ4).
Consider that the building of a major wonder involved the creation (and use) of a leader, behind the scenes.

	09-10-2002 12:53									#8
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quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander Although I agree with you, I just want to point out that it doesn't take war to inspire mankind to do great things.

True, I only put it that way as he said it did not make sense that they could hurry production (or words to that effect). Anyway it is just a contrivance and does not hurt anything.

	11-10-2002 23:02									#9
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Okay how about this
15% chance of getting a great leader whenever you take over a city through culture?

Cheers
~Thadalex

	11-10-2002 23:26									#10
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yes, totally agree with this, but also there is a certain balance now in the game regarding the total number of great leaders who can be created and I think most of the leaders in CIV3 after the first one are used to rush GW or am i wrong?
So it would be necessary to keep this balance so that there are not too much GL created.

	12-10-2002 02:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Gwylim yes, totally agree with this, but also there is a certain balance now in the game regarding the total number of great leaders who can be created and I think most of the leaders in CIV3 after the first one are used to rush GW or am i wrong? So it would be necessary to keep this balance so that there are not too much GL created.

Agree ... I have no problem dropping GL generation to only 5% for warmongers ! yeah like that'll happen...

Regadless... I still think its wrong to only allow GLs to (mostly) warmongers. The most I usually get in a primaritly peaceful game is 2 or 3 if I'm REALLY REALLY lucky. If warmongers get 4 or 5 or (as some people claim) 8 or more per game, then i don't think giving us peacekeepers one or two more per game is gonna hurt that much.

Its one of those things that needs to be playtested obviously, but all things they put in the game are anyway.

Cheers
~Thadalex

	12-10-2002 02:41									#12
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How about leaders that increase the culture of the city they are in each turn.

ie. shakespear or dickens

	12-10-2002 02:57									#13
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many great ideas here...i am 100% with you Thadalex, i feel lucky if i get 2 in a whole game. but a question i have thought of about circumnavigation (which i have thought to be messed up since civ2) how can you really judge if one of your ships goes all the way around the map? and does it have to be the same ship, or can you send two in oppisite directions? and what about trading maps? i rarely explore the whole world, i just trade for the map. your thoughts?

	12-10-2002 02:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Gwylim ... I think most of the leaders in CIV3 after the first one are used to rush GW or am i wrong? ...

If you get a GL and you have no wonder to hurry at the moment, it could be a real waste of opportunity to not build an army immediately (i.e., before you make another attack). Particularly if you do not forsee the quick termination of the current conflict.

You don't have to fill the army immediately, but you don't want to miss out on the potential of getting another, since you cannot have more than one GL at a time.

	12-10-2002 03:03									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

i almost never build armies...they just don't seem that useful. you can upgrade troops, you can't unload troops, and they take a long time to heal. however, i had not thought of buidling an army and not filling it

nevertheless, peaceniks need a way to generate GLs

	12-10-2002 03:07									#16
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Thats a great idea Destroyer, I'm with you 100% on that. I guess the only problem is people die eventually And, of course, you can only have one GL at a time ... so really you could use the GL to rush, say, the sistene chapel ... and basically you've created Michelangelo and the sistene chapel produces your culture.

But maybe a GL could create its own structure, a "Historic Site" that you could name yourself perhaps? Maybe that would make sense ... and it only generates more culture. Almost like permanently disbanding the GL for a permanent per-turn increase in culture. But why stop there? Why not have a GL do one of a number of things ... permanently make 2 content citizens happy, or maybe increase science of gold output for the rest of the game for the city? We're getting pretty involved now though, i know...

As for your comments solomyr, I have to say it would be the feat of having one unit move all tiles across the map. After all, its not so much for discovery as it is for saying "I did it!" and that is, after all, what would really make that great leader. If you have two ships meet, then you don't really have one great naval commander.

Which brings another great want: Naval Great Leaders!

Cheers
~Thadalex

	12-10-2002 03:32									#17
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Thadalex, i completely agree the feat is in moving that unit around the world, i've done it, and felt good about it, but how can we measure that? so that trading for maps, or sending two ships doesn't trigger the event? of course, perhaps the feat could be clearing the ENTIRE maps. no more black squares. this would invovle trade as well as acutally navigation...that's should be the trigger for magellen's voyage.

	12-10-2002 03:40									#18
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I think that's a bit harsh for the Voyage

And I'm not sure what you mean by measure it... how do we judge when you can get a gl or not?

Cheers
~Thadalex

	12-10-2002 03:52									#19
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the first person to clear the map gets a GL...it seems like a big task, but with the trading of maps, it doesn't seem that hard...of course, for a GL might be much, however, the fact is that nothing happens when you clear the entire map now

	12-10-2002 03:56									#20
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That I agree with 100%

ANybody got other peaceful ideas for GL generation?

Cheers
~Thadalex

	12-10-2002 06:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander That I agree with 100% ANybody got other peaceful ideas for GL generation? Cheers ~Thadalex

Once a city reaches a certain culture level, it could produce a peaceful leader. These should be able to move from city to city, and provide a bonus to the city they currently reside. Peraps they could be captured my other civs!

Bonuses could include:

scientist - science
engineer/architect/inventor - production bonus
writer/playwright - culture
director/sportsman - happiness

any others?

	12-10-2002 10:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Destroyer Once a city reaches a certain culture level, it could produce a peaceful leader. These should be able to move from city to city, and provide a bonus to the city they currently reside. Peraps they could be captured my other civs! Bonuses could include: scientist - science engineer/architect/inventor - production bonus writer/playwright - culture director/sportsman - happiness any others?

Its a good idea, but I think they'd have to differentiate between GLs from War and GL from peace. As the game is now, you cannot have more than one GL at a time, so you'd need to factor that in.

Cheers
~Thadalex

	12-10-2002 15:18									#23
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I like the idea of the victorious naval unit,maybe only a great naval leader unit could rush the coastal great wonders,Magellans etc

	12-10-2002 21:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus I like the idea of the victorious naval unit,maybe only a great naval leader unit could rush the coastal great wonders,Magellans etc

Thats a good idea

Is all we can do about this just wish? Can nobody mod this in to the game somehow?

Cheers
~Thadalex

	13-10-2002 14:58									#25
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Hi all,
Great Leaders Ideas.

Firstly there seem to be only military great leaders. This should be expanded so that we have military, religious, cultural, industrial, scientific etc. GL's. These can be located in individual cities to boost particular attibutes to that city.

1. As with the Battlefield Medicine where you have to build five hospitals. You could have great religious leader after building five cathedrals, great industrial leader after building iron-works, great military leader after building five barracks.

2. As in CTP2 you could have great feats of human achievement. One of them was circumnavigation of the globe. Another was invention of concrete. Others related as in point one to building many city improvements, one of which was theatres which boosted your cultural ratings.

3. Based on resources/luxuries. This would encourage trade. When you have through trade a number of luxury/resource, maybe at 2,4,8,16 different received goods a GL is created. When the number of traded goods falls through acquisition within your own territory and lost routes through war and other factors the GL is gone. Of course this may generate more than one GL at a time, maybe as each is acquired the type could be chosen at random from list in intro above.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	13-10-2002 15:08									#26
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I did not see anyone bring this up, so here goes. What about playing a game with alot of barbarians. Sure they are annoying early. But after a little while, you may be able to generate a GL, just by killing Barbs. This may provide you with a GL without having to go to war with people.

	13-10-2002 15:27									#27
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You can't get a Great Leader from defeating a barbarian. Unit promotions, yes, but no GL.

	13-10-2002 18:23									#28
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I think the greatest flaw (but a materpiece) of CIV III is the leader system. So I agree with Thad.

	13-10-2002 18:58									#29
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Are you already thinking of ideas for Civ 4?

If we are, we should only care about ideas that really add something to the game. I am not sure that leaders produced by civilian feats will.

I see two drawbacks in the Great Leader concept in Civ 3:

1. The random factor is too decisive, because Leaders are valuable but rare.
2. It encourages warfare too much, because Leaders can give free Wonders.
3. The Realism factor - not even a great war hero can create big pyramids instantly from thin air.

I would drop the Leaders' possibility to rush Wonders so that they could only create armies. The chance of getting a Leader should be increased too, so you can get more sure of getting an army sooner or later.

Shall we try to think up alternative uses for Leaders? I thought of using them for espionage missions.

	13-10-2002 20:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer I would drop the Leaders' possibility to rush Wonders so that they could only create armies. The chance of getting a Leader should be increased too, so you can get more sure of getting an army sooner or later. Shall we try to think up alternative uses for Leaders? I thought of using them for espionage missions.

I have posted this idea some time ago... I do agree that great leaders shouldn't be able to hurry improvements or wonders - too much of a warmonger's advantage... Instead (if not used to create an army), leaders could increase the scientific, commercial, and/or shield output of a city they would be located in. Something like local Golden Ages... this way, they would still be useful even from the economic point of view, but they would not be SO much powerful as they are now.

The idea of non-military great leaders is driven by the desire to balance the game more in favour of peaceful builders. As the game stands now, the best way is to wage war almost constantly (or at least, a LOT), partly because of great leaders being more plentiful. If there was a way to get leaders in a peaceful way, too, the builders would improve their odds compared to the warmongers...