09-10-2002 09:16									#1
	Recon of Boston and options Tired of ads?

With approval of the President I did a recon of Boston and vicinity. Here is the image and a new save.
Aggie

Attachment: boston.jpg
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	09-10-2002 09:23									#2
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Here is the save following the recon.

Attachment: banana of the egyptians, 490 ad.sav
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	09-10-2002 09:33									#3
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ah, excellent! Three spear and a nearly completed Library. That is essentialy 4 spear. I would say it would take Aztec at least 3-4 turns to take the city. That will give us time to redeploy our troops (like useing the WC on NY instead of Boston).

Use our WC on Boston first so we don't have a unit with attack of 2 attacking a spear fortified in a size two (with reguards to defensive ranking) city (civ capitols always get bumped to the next larger size city).

	09-10-2002 10:28									#4
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That's a big risk if the Aztecs DO take it, are we willing to let them take it while just standing aside? We can take Boston THIS turn, capture New York in 2-3 turns and the war would be over! We need to act immediately if we want to gain anything from the last weeks of planning this campaign.

I hope others see my logic.

	09-10-2002 10:30									#5
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The Aztecs would be willing to ally with us for NO cost... what would a 3-4 turn war due to an alliance if we signed up with them?

	09-10-2002 10:30									#6
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'do' instead of 'due'

and I meant, would we receive black mark for that?

	09-10-2002 10:58									#7
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We have plenty of time.

The Aztecs only have one unit that can attack at this time, and its a horseman (2 attack, 1 defend, 2 move). Even if it succeds in killing a spearman (not very likely. A 2 attack vs a 2 defend + fortified + size two defendable city), the AI will switch production over to spearman to replace the one it lost, then the Aztec army will come in and only be able to kill one spear at a time. Now that I think about it, it will take the Aztecs five turns at the LEAST to take Boston.

The good news is that we know know how the Aztecs have been cleaning up the Americans (with that damn Army [which will be outdated soon, if not already])

	09-10-2002 17:31									#8
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal We have plenty of time. The Aztecs only have one unit that can attack at this time, and its a horseman (2 attack, 1 defend, 2 move). Even if it succeds in killing a spearman (not very likely. A 2 attack vs a 2 defend + fortified + size two defendable city), the AI will switch production over to spearman to replace the one it lost, then the Aztec army will come in and only be able to kill one spear at a time. Now that I think about it, it will take the Aztecs five turns at the LEAST to take Boston. The good news is that we know know how the Aztecs have been cleaning up the Americans (with that damn Army [which will be outdated soon, if not already])

I am convinced that the Aztecs are quite capable of taking it rather quickly. With the horsemen unit we can see and the army they can take down 2 spearmen... I don't know for sure if the army with movement 2 can make 2 attacks in the same turn (I seem to think it can from my own experience with armies of knights, but I could be wrong about that), which means they could take down an additional 2 spearmen the next turn.

It must be kept in mind that the Americans are BROKE, so they can't rush additional spearmen in Boston... so if they lose a spearman, they likely CANNOT replace it in 1 turn.

The net result is that if we send our WCs the full turn back to Del Monte... spend a full turn upgrading them to knights, and then spend 2 more turns getting them to the front line, it is quite likely that Boston will be Aztec by then. FURTHERMORE, the huge stack of Aztec spearmen and archers 4 spaces (or was it 3 spaces?) away from Boston to the west can make it there in time to add additional firepower against the American defenders...

In short, our time is short

I'd recommend storming in with the WCs on the border and hoping the Aztecs wear down the defenses enough in their initial strike (hoping dearly the city has 3 spearmen instead of only 2) to allow our WCs to capture the city for ourselves.

	09-10-2002 18:07									#9
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Armys can only attack more than once in a turn if EVERY unit in the Army has the "Blitz" ability. This means that the army can only attack once a turn.

The horseman will most likely loose if it attacks the city. The army will take at least one tuns to get there (it is two tiles away) and the stack of units behind it move only one tile a turn.

I noted that the library is almost done cause what will happen is once Boston looses one of its spear, it will switch from finishing the library to building a spear and instantly have the shields needed for an addional spear.

One turn for the Army to get there and 4 tuns to kill the four spear. 5 turns total.

Only other possibilities is 1) single horse manages to win (unlikely) 2) Boston doesn't switch to spear (also unlikely). At most this reduces the time to 3 turns. The Aztecs WILL NOT take Boston any sooner than this.

	09-10-2002 18:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Now that I think about it, it will take the Aztecs five turns at the LEAST to take Boston.

No, I figure with the units they have they will take Boston at the end of next turn at the very latest. They may not have enough units to take it this turn. But if we don't take it the turn after this current one, it will be an Aztec city and not an American one.

They only have to kill 3 spear that fourth will never happen. The Aztecs will attack and probably kill 2 spear if we are lucky. Boston will switch to spearman. Aztecs will attack the second turn and will only have to kill the one spearman who survived because it will take a turn before the production goes through for the last literate spearman. They have 2 turns to kill 3 spearman. That will be easy for them.

	09-10-2002 18:32									#11
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Taking Boston with war chariots means triggering the golden age. Assuming the timing is not yet ideal, a mistimed GA is NOT worth taking Boston (which we should be able to take easily enough down the road).

	09-10-2002 18:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron Taking Boston with war chariots means triggering the golden age. Assuming the timing is not yet ideal, a mistimed GA is NOT worth taking Boston (which we should be able to take easily enough down the road).

I agree, We have 2 options:

1) Take Boston next turn and trigger a GA.

2) Forget Boston and try to take New York.

We wouldn't have been left with these choices if someone had built a road towards Boston.

	09-10-2002 20:23									#13
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We need to plan for the possibility that Boston will be taken by the Aztecs after 500 AD. Having said that, our two options are just what Ghengis said in the above post.
Keep in mind that if we take option 1 we must switch to Republic this turn so that we don't spend turns in anarchy during our GA.
Also keep in mind that if we do decide to give up on Boston for now and take New York instead, once a temple is rushed in New York we will be holding 4 out of Boston's 21 city tiles, and since our culture is far superior to that of the Aztecs and our capital is a lot closer it shouldn't be too hard to flip Boston.

	09-10-2002 20:29									#14
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We should move the emergency settler to between Chicago and Washington and found a city where we should alternate building one turn then rushing a temple, a cathedral etc and try to force flip Chicago and Washington ASAP, I do not believe they are connected to the Aztec capital.

	09-10-2002 20:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb We should move the emergency settler to between Chicago and Washington and found a city where we should alternate building one turn then rushing a temple, a cathedral etc and try to force flip Chicago and Washington ASAP, I do not believe they are connected to the Aztec capital.

Assuming we're willing to spend the money to try this, I think this is the best plan.

	09-10-2002 20:44									#16
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Based on this evidence I Have decided we will wait for the knights to get there. Ghengis is correct that there is a chance the aztecs could take the defenders, and actually with the timeing we now have is perfect, we can attack with the 2knights the very turn after the aztecs have launched the first attack. I hope the aztects win both battles then we only have to take one units, but no matter we will have at the worst 2knightsvs 1reg spear(3/3) and 1reg spear(?/3), we can win that fight. Also since the aztecs will attack they will be weakened and unable to attack immediately with anything other thanthe archer army, which will NEVER be ablle to get to NY. Once again the banana has smiled upon us.
Aggie

	09-10-2002 20:47									#17
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I don't like the idea of having a GA whilst we're not fully ready for it. If the Aztecs take Bostin, so what? If we don't flip it as Arnelos suggests (an idea I like, BTW), it gives one more Aztec city close enough to take quickly in the even to of a future war. Remember Germany - when we attacked France and they roped both Germany and Persia into attacking us? Germany was defeated and humiliated with a GPT peace deal because we quicly took out Munich (I think that was the city). We could do the same with the Aztecs' American cities. And if WE initiate the war, we could take these easily and get a favourable peace whilst regrouping.

	09-10-2002 20:59									#18
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-deleted, nevermind-

	09-10-2002 21:02									#19
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if I remember the save correctly, we have four war chariots stage at the border, why not use them to stall the advance of the army (essentially just put them in the way)? If the army chose instead to take to the mountains beside boston, it would give it an advantageous attack position that would make it more likely to win both battles because of its defensive bonus from there. Then we sweep in behind them and clean up with knights.

Last edited by ruby_maser on 09-10-2002 at 21:08

	09-10-2002 21:13									#20
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We need the Golden Age + Republic to boot-strap our inferstructure.

When this is done, we can probably immedately set science to 20% to cut down some turns until Printing Press is complete. The Golden Age should result in us only needing 10% luxaries instead of 20% that Republic alone would require while happiness improvements are being built.

Court Houses, Market Places, Catherdrials, and Libaries are all then rushed. (With at least 1 turn normal building to eliminate the 2X cost of not starting yet.)

When enough of the Market Places are complete, science rate is bumbed up again so that the next Minister of Science has a more powerful position.

	09-10-2002 21:34									#21
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Ruby_maser's plan is excellent, enter the war, put the chariot south of the mountain. That will force the aztecs to move their army onto the mountain (or less likely go around us) and give 1 extra turn.

The next turn the army will attack twice then no matter what we do. (2 move armies do blitz, I use armies of calvary that can attack 3 times a turn all the time) The horseman will probally attack next turn no matter what we do. The army will probally win at least one of its battles (maybe both if its not hurt much on the 1st). So they may take chicago in 2 turns, but if the army or the regular horseman either one loses, it'll take them 3 turns. If we don't move in their way, then they'll possibly take it in 2 turns. (army + horseman attack next turn, leaving 1 spear, either could finish it next turn)

So the question is can we get our knights there to capitalize on the weakened city in that time frame?

	10-10-2002 01:19									#22
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How on earth will the Aztec be able to take a city defended by three spear in two turns if they are only capable of one successful attack? 3-1=2. Even in the unlikely event that the single horseman has a successful in its attack, it will still take a minumum of 3 turns. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the Aztecs to take Boston in two turns.

	10-10-2002 01:34									#23
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Looking at what Boston is producing several turns into a war, is it any wonder they are losing?

Wervdon, if the Golden Age during the American war fails (which unforunately it looks like will happen), the War Chariots will have to be kept out of the American theatre until upgraded to Knights to prevent a court case.

(AI loves to attack offensive units like War Chariots and a successful defense would go against the poll.)

	10-10-2002 01:53									#24
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quote: How on earth will the Aztec be able to take a city defended by three spear in two turns if they are only capable of one successful attack? 3-1=2. Even in the unlikely event that the single horseman has a successful in its attack, it will still take a minumum of 3 turns. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the Aztecs to take Boston in two turns.

That's absolutely right deonegeal, they can't take it in less then 3 turns, and even if they take 1 spear the next turn, Boston (assuming their turn comes after the Aztecs) will have the city switch to spear, so by the time they attack with the army they'll have 3 spearmen there (otherwise only 2). And besides we have 3 knights (not only 2) that can attack them in 3 turns, just the critical time, after the Aztecs weakened Boston before their army and archers can take it.

We can send the WC in, just not attack with them, or defend with them, if we don't we have a risk that an Aztec horseman will block our way, and we couldn't attack it with knights in 3 turns.

	10-10-2002 02:10									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser if I remember the save correctly, we have four war chariots stage at the border, why not use them to stall the advance of the army (essentially just put them in the way)?

Nice idea for strategy. I've used delay tactics like that many times in my games, to different degrees of success. It seems however that we may not have to do that after all, though.

	10-10-2002 02:45									#26
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If our WC is attacked by the Americans and survives one attack it trigures a Golden Age just like attacking with it would, and it looks like we won't have authorization to trigue one now.

	10-10-2002 03:14									#27
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That's indeed a risk, but it doesn't seem like the Americans have any offensive unit nearby, so we can at least move the WC north, so that the horsemen, can't possibly attack Boston from thesouth and survive, thus blocking our 3 knights that are on their way, for an attack from the south.

	10-10-2002 03:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser if I remember the save correctly, we have four war chariots stage at the border, why not use them to stall the advance of the army (essentially just put them in the way)? If the army chose instead to take to the mountains beside boston, it would give it an advantageous attack position that would make it more likely to win both battles because of its defensive bonus from there. Then we sweep in behind them and clean up with knights.

This got me thinking and I think that I've come up with an elegant solution. Please note the screen shot:


It will take until turn 2 before the first Knights are ready to attack Boston, so I propose this:

Turn 0 (490AD) move the WC's that are on the border to the Red X'ed (and maybe the Blue one too) positions to block the Aztecs from advancing along that route. At the same time, Rush everything that we need to (temples mostly & Arbela Cathedral). We will also have to sell America Theology and make the Alliance Deal with the Aztecs this turn. We will be at war! Bring the Knights closer to the front.

Turn 1 (500AD) Change to Republic, making sure that any large cities don't go into Civil Unrest. Advance the Knights to Boston's doorstep, they will be ready to attack next turn. The SMC might also want to attack with the WC's, depending on what the Aztecs do, but we should be aright (Imploring ther Great Banana, Incense buring in the background).

Turns 2-4 (510 - 540AD) Take Boston & Trigger our GA.

This will give us a full 20 turns of GA, Republic & a very short War so War Weariness won't affect us greatly. By the end of the GA, we should be on the way to being the greatest Nation in Anabanana.

E_T

	10-10-2002 04:09									#29
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn If our WC is attacked by the Americans and survives one attack it trigures a Golden Age just like attacking with it would, and it looks like we won't have authorization to trigue one now.

I would argue that since the poll was being conducted to see if we could give the SMC specific authorization to attack using WCs, that a failure of the poll does not necessarily stop him from using them in a manner other than attacking, especially one as non-combative as using them to block Aztec units (with which we are not at war) to attack an American city.

Especially if this is immediately followed up by an attack by non-WC units, it would not be the SMC's fault if the computer stupidly attacked the WCs while the AI is obviously better off just keeping his spearmen fortified inside his capital city.

If the issue needs to be further clarified, however, we could always conduct a second (and emergency) poll asking whether the WCs can be used in this, non-combative manner.

The entire problem with holding a poll about when we will have our GA is that it assumes we actually have full control over when we have our GA... something which is not always true.

	10-10-2002 08:17									#30
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One note: armies can blitz. If you look in your civ3mod.bic, you'll see it has the blitz ability. I've seen they can blitz myself (man, that cavalry army was nice. ). Currently, armies only have the abilities of the army unit. This is why marine armies are essentially useless (they aren't amphibious).

So, it is possible the Aztecs could take Boston in two turns, if they move both the army and the lone horseman on to the mountain this turn. However, I don't know if the AI is willing to attack with armies in the yellow or red, so it may be three or four turns.