09-10-2002 19:14									#1
	Can the Greeks play a warmonger style? Enter the AD-FREE zone

The Greeks seem pretty designed for a builder style with their defensive UU, and scientific/commercial.

So, I was wondering: can the Greeks play a warmonger style? If yes, what is the best way?

It seems to me that the way to go is to use your hoplite to make your cities virtually impregnable,(hoplite and city walls and your cities will be almost impossible to take until knights) which will allow you concentrate exclusively on offense with a swordsman rush.

The other strategy might be to play defense and try to avoid wars until knights and then attack en force.

	09-10-2002 21:32									#2
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You can warmonger with any civ. Some are just more suited to it than others.

Try either an archer rush or a sword/horse rush and try to avoid using your hoplites (it'll be hard, but if you must defend, use a swordsman). The choice between archer rush and horse/sword rush comes down to how much open land there is nearby. If you have room to expand, go with the later horse/sword attack. If you're squeezed early, hit 'em with archers.

Then go for the jugular with knights, using your hoplites to trigger a GA.

-Arrian

	09-10-2002 21:54									#3
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I'm not sure I would even build Hoplites until I got out of Despotism...

Focus entirely on Warriors, Settlers, and Workers (maybe Archers if there's an early rush opportunity, but don't forget they'd be going out with out defensive accompaniment).

10% research, or one scientist. Massive upgrade, and tell your Swordsmen to go to town, get drunk, and lay waste to anybody who pisses'em off.

After a coupla oscillations, and after you've achieved Monarchy (better than Republic for this strategy), keep sending your Sword stacks out, now accompanied by 50% Hoplites... time for some GL hunting with your elite Swords. First, the vassals and punching bags around you won't be able to put up a credible defense, and second, a large enough stack configured this way can take out anything up through Musketmen and Knights. It's slowmover, true, but turn lemons into lemonade by sticking to the high ground.

While all the mayhem continues, you can start to build your Horsemen reserve for upgrade to Knights. Use the Horsemen as MPs.

	09-10-2002 22:54									#4
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Good point. No hoplites early on.

A lot of this depends on what you get from the map generator. If you have several neighbors, you're all set. If you have cultural linkage on, target #1 is Rome - warrior or archer rush. DO NOT allow them to get up and running with iron. Legionaries are perhaps the worst unit to face in the ancient age (along with Hoplites, of course, but at least the Hops can't attack well). I'd rather face immortals. Hell, I'd rather face Impi!

Target #2 depends. It could be Egypt, but if there is another civ with an ancient UU (say.... the Iroquois) they bump Egypt down the list.

Like Theseus said, oscillate, and then try to set up GL farms. This essentially means beating down your neighbors to a few resource-less cities, and having a few stacks of elite troops patrolling the highground, whacking the archers that trickle your way.

-Arrian

	10-10-2002 00:19									#5
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build up an army of vetern warriors and make a few cities close to the capital. Upgrade to Swordsmen and build a few hoplites for city and army defense. Send out stacks of swords with one hoplite.

Declare war, cross borders and wait for the counter attack to start your GA. Exort for peace and build a few wonders.

	11-10-2002 03:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm not sure I would even build Hoplites until I got out of Despotism...

Wow. Don't u ever build spearmen dude? Not even Knights can face them with equal chance for victory when the hoplite is fortified and supported with walls.

Knights Attack rating: 4 Hoplite's Defense Rating: 6

Only cavalry can effectively face face them. It's all in all a great unit, capable to withstand all attacks and provide exellent cover when needed.

	11-10-2002 05:12									#7
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Well actually a hoplite has 1.3.1 rate, you must be looking at a mod. Swordsmen tend to not have much trouble with spearmen in small towns. You do not want to bet the farm that a spearmen will hold off swordsmen.

	11-10-2002 08:32									#8
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Athitis relax! The point that Theseus was making was not that Hoplites are a bad unit. It was that you waste your Golden Age as a Despot if you're attacked. That's why he suggests not building them until you're out of Despotism.

BTW, vmxa1, a defense of 6 for a hoplite fortified behind walls is standard.

	11-10-2002 10:05									#9
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Thanks alexman... Athitis, that's totally my point, Hoplites are an awesome defender, but I hate Despotism GAs. I also think Swordsmen and Hoplites together are an indomitable one-two punch, up through at least Pikemen, so I'm suggesting solely Swordsmen until Monarchy, and then Hoplites. Thus, you can get a GA with a somewhat well-developed empire, maybe 8 to 12 decent towns / cities, spitting out 20-shield Hoplites and 30-shield Swordsmen at a scary rate.

The AI civs within a reasonable distance should be afraid... very afraid.

On the other hand, influenced by AU 107: Hoplites? Feh. Give me LEGIONS! SPQR!!

	11-10-2002 12:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by alexman BTW, vmxa1, a defense of 6 for a hoplite fortified behind walls is standard.

Yes, that is true. The sentence that mentioned 6 rating did not say anything about that and was not in the paragraph that did talk about it so, I did not make the connection.

	11-10-2002 13:18									#11
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I play the Greeks pretty often and I find they are very good for my peaceful, builder style. I tend to keep away from any conflict in the ancient era and if I do get in trouble my hoplites can repell any attack. I can't see though why they cannot be a succesful warmonger civ, especially since in the hands of a human player the AI does not stand much of a chace!

So long...

	11-10-2002 14:13									#12
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Don't worry alexman I am relaxed. I was just surprised that Theseus said he doesn't build Hoplites until he is out of Despotism (which usually takes time).....but now I can see ur point. I think the GA with Hoplites comes at a good time, since it takes time for the AI to build units capable of defeating the Greek UU nad u have a large empire by then.

I am cerainly not a warmonger, but there is always use for Holpites!

Oh, and what is AU 107 anyway?

	11-10-2002 21:14									#13
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The current game being played by Apolyton University. See the spoiler threads.

	04-11-2002 19:22									#14
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Oh my can you ever warmonger with the Greeks!

Those who think hoplites are the wrong choice might be in for a very big surprise. At Realms Beyond Civilization we just had a Monarch level "Epic game" with a simple rule - Always War - from game start to finish, the very turn you meet a civilization. And the Greeks were our civ. They simply tore the opponents up, it was brutal!

See Sirian's report --
http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/epic14.html

Or for more on the Epics, or to get about a dozen other reports with this same game, see:
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/epic14.html

Charis