09-10-2002 21:22									#1
	Do we want GA now Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We have come to decision time. Do we start a GA next during the american war or wait until the next chnace for war in about 20 turns. I believ after much consideration putting off the GA another 20 turns till the next war. This would give us time to build the improvements that will make are golden age truly golden. However I do also understand the people who say we can use the Ga to build these improvements so lets here it.
Aggie

	09-10-2002 21:25									#2
	Remove this text

I would certainly prefer the latter - delay the GA.

We have in our power the ability to more or less control when our GA is, and there's no point wasting it on a civilization full of war-worn (or war-torn) jungle cities. What the hell will the diseased citizens of Apolytonia care for a Golden Age? We must clear jungle, build Temples, Marketplaces and Libraries before any GA!

Let's maximise the GA impact, not minimise it.

	09-10-2002 21:31									#3
	GA Remove this text

sounds like we are going to need a poll but I say delay it. I do think we should declare war with america immediately though, and use the war chariots on the american border as way to block the aztec advance/nudge them to the aside.

	09-10-2002 21:54									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

DELAY

	09-10-2002 22:07									#5
	Put an end to popups!

It seems like there's not much choice. We are short of money to make all the necessary upgrades and reach our golden age prepared. I say delay it until the next war (to be fought against France or the Aztecs, it seems).
Btw, what's our status with the switch to Republic? We are fully prepared for a switch immediately after the American campaign, except for Uber Isle where we still have to rush temples and then still have to turn the 3rd citizen into a specialist after the switch. IMHO we should purchase temples in Uber Isle during this turnchat to be prepared to switch to Republic at the beginning of the next turnchat.

	09-10-2002 22:38									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We need the Golden Age now, otherwise, Repubilc costs more money in maintenance and luxaries than it brings in which keeps our science research non-existant. (The poll results of Republic was overwhelmingly in favor.)

To reliably have a Golden Age 20 turns from now requires us to WIN a battle with a War Chariot then.

Some civs already have Gun Powder, more will have it 20 turns from now, which will make it much more difficult to acheive and we'd have fewer WCs to upgrade to Knights once it's achieved.

	09-10-2002 23:00									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If we switch to Republic now we won't have to raise the lux slider, except to keep Uber Isle functioning. There are other ways to keep those towns out of disorder though, such as rushing temples in all of them and keeping the population below 3 while working on a road to connect all of the towns so that once we get Astronomy and build a harbor on Uber Isle we'll be able to support bigger populations.

	09-10-2002 23:01									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Delay it???

Until when? Whenever we feel like it? When are we ever going to feel that our nation is "ready" for a GA? There's always going to be one more thing to build or wait for.

To have a GA, we need to be in a war, we need to attack someone with our lousey attack 2 WCs and we need to win. It's not like we can just click on a button on our advisor screen and have a GA. When the GA occurs we will be in the midst of a war with someone. Are the people going to approve going to war in the future when the predestined moment of "GA perfection" is before us?

We need to be in a short war, like this American clean-up, that we can control and very quickly end. After America is gone, all we have is France, and they may not be so easily beaten by our WCs. They may not also sue for peace quite as quickly, giving us several turns of War Weariness that will hinder our GA production.

Or we can wait until a larger nation invades us and try to beat them off with WCs and spring a GA. But who knows how long such a defensive war will last. Certainly not as quick and easy as the American clean-up.

We need production. We need to get our FP and Palace built yesterday, not around 1500AD. A GA gives us rapid production and will allow us to get these critical buildings up ASAP. It also allows us rapidly catch up to the rest of the world.

I'd rather see us catch up now before we're attacked by Cavalry than at some distant point in the future where we go to GA out of necessity to keep our nation from being pummeled by a superior military power.

YES we want GA now. We need a GA now.

--Togas

	09-10-2002 23:10									#9
	I concur with Togas Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I also believe we need a GA now. We are ready to take advantage of it, and with a GA, we will be able to build our temples, marketplaces, and cathedrals faster.

Our War Chariots aren't going to be effective much longer, it is probably best to take advantage of the situation now while they at least still have a chance. We're getting 130+ LPT at the moment, a GA with substantially increase that amount, what better way to increase our funds, and increase the production output of our cities?

	09-10-2002 23:10									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think as many entertainers as needed on Uber Island in leiu of luxaries as an emergency messure until Temples are built is much more economicy feasible.

Hum, could we have an update on Net Revenue on Repubilc [without golden age] vs Monarchy as it stands now? Assume luxaries at 0%. Entertainers hired on Uber Island where needed, Science unchanged.

	09-10-2002 23:12									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Togas's arguement sounds pretty compelling. While I would hope we can take a turn or two to line up minimally useful happiness infrastructure (courthouses, temples), a Golden Age near-term would greatly accelerate the construction of a new palace, the Forbidden Palace, and (in other cities) cathedrals and marketplaces -- while hopefully avoiding attack from a rival civ.

[edit: another precondition would be switching to republic]

	09-10-2002 23:15									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Togas Delay it??? Until when? Whenever we feel like it? When are we ever going to feel that our nation is "ready" for a GA? There's always going to be one more thing to build or wait for. To have a GA, we need to be in a war, we need to attack someone with our lousey attack 2 WCs and we need to win. It's not like we can just click on a button on our advisor screen and have a GA. When the GA occurs we will be in the midst of a war with someone. Are the people going to approve going to war in the future when the predestined moment of "GA perfection" is before us? We need to be in a short war, like this American clean-up, that we can control and very quickly end. After America is gone, all we have is France, and they may not be so easily beaten by our WCs. They may not also sue for peace quite as quickly, giving us several turns of War Weariness that will hinder our GA production. Or we can wait until a larger nation invades us and try to beat them off with WCs and spring a GA. But who knows how long such a defensive war will last. Certainly not as quick and easy as the American clean-up. We need production. We need to get our FP and Palace built yesterday, not around 1500AD. A GA gives us rapid production and will allow us to get these critical buildings up ASAP. It also allows us rapidly catch up to the rest of the world. I'd rather see us catch up now before we're attacked by Cavalry than at some distant point in the future where we go to GA out of necessity to keep our nation from being pummeled by a superior military power. YES we want GA now. We need a GA now. --Togas

I couldn't have said it better myself.

	09-10-2002 23:18									#13
	Got spare money?

Basically what I'm now thinking is should we start the American annexation with the Golden Age or close it down with a Golden Age as a matter of fine-tuning.

If it's right now a net loss in gold to switch to Republic without Golden Age, we should start the American annexation with the Golden Age.

But if it's a net postive in gold to switch to Republic without Golden Age, we should end the American annexation with the Golden Age.

	09-10-2002 23:19									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I dont think the viability of the war chariot in the future has any bearing on the decision. We will be able to get it from wonders.

If captured wonders count, then chances are our pyramids will cause a golden age next time we build any wonder. I've heard someone say this is the case with captured wonders, but I haven't confirmed it. Possibly, it'll count next time we build a industrious or religious wonder.

If the captured pyramids count, then we will still get one if we build the hoover dam, we built the sistine which is religious. If not hoover, the manhattan is also industrious, and Ive never failed to be the first to build it in a game that I remember.

In short, Im not worried about if we'll get a golden age. We're setup very well to get one in the industrial age with the hoover dam, possibly sooner if the pyramids cause one as soon as we build our next wonder like ive heard some say they will.

So basically, we don't _have_ to do it now to get one. The opportunity will not go away. So the question is do we want one now? Id say just read Mr. WhereItsAt's post, he said it best

	09-10-2002 23:29									#15
	Remove this text

Wervdon, the AI gets 20% off prices of everything, includinging Great Wonders.

If captured wonders count, we have a chance of getting a Golden Age if we get a Great Leader at any time.

If they don't, we have to get the Great Leader at the right time for Hoover Dam or Manhatten Project.

2 or 3 AI civs or ahead of us on reserach, they have a big advantage on naturally building the wonders, especally because the "losers" are now being bumbed to the next one.

I don't see us ever being in a position to constinatly be the first to any tech if we don't start a Golden Age before an AI enters the Industrial Ages.

Without the Golden Age by the time we have Market Places + Libaries in all our core cities, the AI has Banks + Universities in all of their core cities.

Thud is especally correct about it being a golden age speeding up the construction of the Forbidden Palace.

	09-10-2002 23:32									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've just made a survey and we'll have an income of 150 to 160 gold. I can't give an exact figure because I'm unsure as to the way corruption works under Republic.
Anyway, we should change to Republic as soon as possible, preferably *this turn*.

Regarding the GA, France still has several warriors in the area of Rheims which can be beaten by our WCs. We can also use WCs against French swordsmen which have 2 defense.
It takes 5 turns before your enemy agrees to talk to you and end the war. If we plan well we can position troops in strategic locations and take Rheims, Lyons and two other cities in 5 turns and then sue for peace.
I partially agree with what Togas said. I think we need this GA to complete the new palace and the FP and to give our nation a boost so that we can catch up with the other civs on research. I also realize that there's always something to improve before the GA, and that waiting for the "perfect moment" is practically absurd, but our nation is EXCEPTIONALLY lacking on infrastructure and we need at least several more turns to build some courthouses and market places in strategic points.
Therefore I believe that right now isn't the time for a GA, and a war against France to be fought after America is gone will serve as better grounds for our GA. We already have the troops and the WCs ready. All we have to do is to position them and then attack. Once the GA is started we should seek peace as soon as possible and then go through 20 turns of building and prosperity.

	09-10-2002 23:46									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm also for delaying the GA untill the next war (probably france in 17 turns), as we would need the Republic, and switching now can cause some unhappiness problems, as we don't have the money for rushing the neccesary improvements. I would have said yes for a GA if we could have sparked it in about 5 or more turns so we would have more gold for rushing, but we don't 'cause the Aztecs are all over America. I say we should wait untill we kick france's ass, then we can use the WCs on their lowly warriors.

	09-10-2002 23:52									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have just posted a poll on this issue please vote. This is an official poll and will be binding.
Aggie

	09-10-2002 23:54									#19
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Have our GA ASAP! Our War Chariots are getting obsolete fast, and I don't think that capturing a wonder counts. In other words, our chances of getting it will diminish with time.

	10-10-2002 00:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Have our GA ASAP! Our War Chariots are getting obsolete fast, and I don't think that capturing a wonder counts. In other words, our chances of getting it will diminish with time.

Hogwash. Unless we go downhill in a BIG way, we will get a GA at some point. It is of course preferable if we get one as soon as we are ready, but we will get one whatever happens. WoWs, use of WCs... there will be plenty of opportunities for these. If we don't get one until uch later, that is a lot better than before it would do us much good. If we are still building our infrastructure when we finish the GA (which we would if we got it right now), we are screwed. Let's not be stupid like the AI and get our GA at a less than optimum time. We are doing more than fine right now - we don't NEED a GA. Of course it would be ludicrous not to get one, but it would be equally absurd to get one because everyone else already has, and there is some belief that we are in grave danger of falling behind enough that we will be killed soon. We aren't dying in 20 turns, and thus we can afford to wait until the best time.

Alright, so maybe a GA now would help us get the FP, but we have tonnes of potentially great land and many cities. If we spend just 20 turns or less building them up and reorganising forces under a Republic, we will be very much more ready to capitalise on the GA. With our LPT rate we should be able to get Libraries and Marketplaces in most of the cities that they would profit within 20 turns, before a GA. Which would help us best - a GA that helps us build these things or a GA where we HAVEthem already, meaning a vast boost in Science and cash over what we would have otherwise?

Have our GA ASAP! As soon as PRACTICAL.

	10-10-2002 00:58									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Infer structure is a moving target.

Right now, not having Market Places, Catherdrials, and Libaries in core cities is way behind.

20 turns from now, the need to produce Universities and/or Banks will be sited as a reason to delay the Golden Age.

	10-10-2002 01:10									#22
	Got spare money?

quote: 20 turns from now, the need to produce Universities and/or Banks will be sited as a reason to delay the Golden Age.

Not neccesarily so, but right now we can benefit greatly from another 20 turns of inrastructure building and jungle clearing, so some time later is obviously better. Getting the GA from a future war with france seems like a good option, and there is no reason not to have it then.We have a poll about this, and in the time untill the next chance we should have another, which will probably get more support then this time, because we have very little infrastructure compared to our military, since this is going to change, it doesn't matter if we have some certain improvements, the fact that we are deeply into building them (not yet), while still enjoy some of them matters more. Let us have the GA as the peak of our economic growth we're starting now, not at the very beginning of it.

	10-10-2002 09:49									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

All we need is a little infrastructure. Right now we have basically none in most cities. Maybe we should set a broad goal, eg Marketplaces in all cities of 4+ pop, Libraries in 50% of cities with 6+ arrows...? Then it would be easier to stick to a time from now instead of "just one more University" syndrome, which I admit COULD be a problem if we aren't diligent.

	10-10-2002 18:30									#24
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt All we need is a little infrastructure. Right now we have basically none in most cities. Maybe we should set a broad goal, eg Marketplaces in all cities of 4+ pop, Libraries in 50% of cities with 6+ arrows...? Then it would be easier to stick to a time from now instead of "just one more University" syndrome, which I admit COULD be a problem if we aren't diligent.

I agree. I have always said we need to have the first level of buildings (marketplaces and libraries) in all of our major cities before a GA. I wouldn't hold a GA back for cathedrals and banks but at least some multiplication of their effect should be in place.