09-10-2002 21:29									#1
	Amendment Discussion: Cash Rushing and Upgrading (revisited) Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Lets all remain focused on the goal here:

This is not intended to address Pop Rushing OR Drafting. Only the use of cash from the Govt coffers.

Amendment (insert #): Cash Rushing and Upgrading

The purpose of this amendment is to set a model for the use and distribution of funds for the purposes of rushing buildings and units, and the upgrading of military units.

1) The Minister of Economy is responsible for the distribution of funds from the Government.

2) Both the City Planner and the Minister of the Military will submit requests in the form of cash amounts to the Minister of Economy for their desired purchases.

3) The Minister of Economy will analyze the situation and determine the distribution of funds to the respective ministers, taking into account any possible trades proposed by the Foreign Affairs Minister. The Minister of Economy is strongly advised to confer with the respective ministers and the public with reguards to what needs are most important.

4) The City Planner and Minister of the Military will then spend their funds as they see fit, up to and including trading of cash between themselves.


OK, lets hear improvements.

	09-10-2002 21:55									#2
	Re: Amendment Discussion: Cash Rushing and Upgrading (revisited) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx 4) The City Planner and Minister of the Military will then spend their funds as they see fit, up to and including trading of cash between themselves.

The spending must be in line with the requests. It would deny all kind of control if money appropriated for one purpose was spent on an other (including the trading of cash between Ministers). The meaning of the appropriation is for shifting money from upgrading to rushing units, or from one building in one town to another buiding in an other town.

By the way the Minister of Foreign Affairs has also to make requests for opening embassies, for negociating treaties, etc, but he does not need the appropriation procedure.

	09-10-2002 22:39									#3
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The requests are for a cash amount.

City planners says: Hey, MOE, I want 300 Lytons. MOE says, you get 200. City Planner decides which city doesnt get that temple rushed...

The FAM minister requests are already covered in the CoL and therefore not subject to this amendment. Or should we just redo the whole MoE amendment and fix it?

	09-10-2002 22:46									#4
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Hows this?

To replace the current wording of the MoE:

The positions of Minister of Trade and Minister of Finance are hereby dissolved by this amendment. In their place is the creation of a new office, the Ministry of the Economy.

The functions of the Ministry of Economy will precisely be :
- To adjust the sliders in agreement with the People or the President. These two get actually to decide who should get what budget. The minister of economy should only give documented advice.
- To check if cities produce a good amount of money, and petition the city planner to build marketplaces and banks where it has to be. The minister of economy has no direct power on cities however.
- To check if resources and luxuries are well dispatched in the empire, and to petition the minister of public works if different. The minister of economy has no direct power on workers.
- To establish trades with the AI involving resources, luxuries or gold.
- To haggle gold amounts in a trade decided by the foreign minister. The minister of economy has to agree with trades involving goods among other things (example, he has to agree to a suggested "Fur for IronWorking" trade). The minister of economy has no direct power on trades involving gold among other things, but no trade goods.

	09-10-2002 22:55									#5
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Not to be fickle, but "To distribute funds. . ." makes it sounds like he has no option to reject a request.

Perhaps "Can choose to distribute funnds. . ." would be better?

	09-10-2002 23:00									#6
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Well, he can always choose to distribute 0 funds.

	09-10-2002 23:05									#7
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Should not we add to the sentence

To distribute funds to Minister of Military for the Upgrading

and rushing of Units as requested.

(just to keep the rushing of units under the Military authority).

Otherwise, it seems workable. The MoE will have to remind the Ministers that unused funds at the end of any turnchat or turnthread must be returned to the Treasury.

	09-10-2002 23:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Not to be fickle, but "To distribute funds. . ." makes it sounds like he has no option to reject a request. Perhaps "Can choose to distribute funnds. . ." would be better?

If the money is available, and if nobody else in the gov questions the request, the MoE cannot refuse. If, as a member of the Gov, he questions the request, and cannot find an agreement with the MoM, others members of the Gov must take side.

	09-10-2002 23:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Should not we add to the sentence To distribute funds to Minister of Military for the Upgrading and rushing of Units as requested. (just to keep the rushing of units under the Military authority). Otherwise, it seems workable. The MoE will have to remind the Ministers that unused funds at the end of any turnchat or turnthread must be returned to the Treasury.

Units have, till now, been PRODUCED by th City Planner...I could add units to his section?

	09-10-2002 23:26									#10
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx The positions of Minister of Trade and Minister of Finance are hereby dissolved by this amendment. In their place is the creation of a new office, the Ministry of the Economy. The functions of the Ministry of Economy will precisely be : - To adjust the sliders in agreement with the People or the President. These two get actually to decide who should get what budget. The minister of economy should only give documented advice. - To check if cities produce a good amount of money, and petition the city planner to build marketplaces and banks where it has to be. The minister of economy has no direct power on cities however. - To check if resources and luxuries are well dispatched in the empire, and to petition the minister of public works if different. The minister of economy has no direct power on workers. - To establish trades with the AI involving resources, luxuries or gold. - To haggle gold amounts in a trade decided by the foreign minister. The minister of economy has to agree with trades involving goods among other things (example, he has to agree to a suggested "Fur for IronWorking" trade). The minister of economy has no direct power on trades involving gold among other things, but no trade goods. - To distribute funds to Minister of Military for the Upgrading of Units. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which units will be upgraded, however. - To distribute funds to the City Planner for the rushing of buildings or units. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which (removed buildings here) get rushed, but can petition the City Planner as to his own opinions. - To distribute funds to the Foreign Affairs Minister for the building of Embassies. The Minster of Economy has no direct control over which embassy is built first.

Changes in bold...

	10-10-2002 01:28									#11
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Souds good to me- this could to some interesting budget debates, when minister tries to convince the MoE of the importance of rusing this cathedral/upgrading that pike/opening those embassies.

Sound like fun...

	10-10-2002 01:55									#12
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Units have, till now, been PRODUCED by th City Planner...I could add units to his section?

IMHO, units rushed cannot be produced by CP without a prior request for funds has been submitted by the Military. The CP does the unit but does not initiate the decision. Nevertheless, he can question the request as CP if he think that another production would be more appropriate, or as a member of the gov, if he think that the money would be best spend in a completely different area, or not spend this turn at all.

Have we delt with another huge category of expense, I mean the purchase of tech ?

	10-10-2002 02:23									#13
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That is under the FAM MoE, Ironically "Has no direct power on trades" But "has to agree with the FAM on trades involving goods"

That portion could be better, perhaps?

quote: The positions of Minister of Trade and Minister of Finance are hereby dissolved by this amendment. In their place is the creation of a new office, the Ministry of the Economy. The functions of the Ministry of Economy will precisely be : - To adjust the sliders in agreement with the People or the President. These two get actually to decide who should get what budget. The minister of economy should only give documented advice. - To check if cities produce a good amount of money, and petition the city planner to build marketplaces and banks where it has to be. The minister of economy has no direct power on cities however. - To check if resources and luxuries are well dispatched in the empire, and to petition the minister of public works if different. The minister of economy has no direct power on workers. (- removed section on establishing trades, that is the job of FAM) - To haggle gold amounts in a trade decided by the Foreign Affairs Minister. The Minister of Economy must agree to all trades involving cash, luxuries, or resources that are proposed by the Foreing Affairs Minister. - To distribute funds to Minister of Military for the Upgrading of Units. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which units will be upgraded, however. - To distribute funds to the City Planner for the rushing of buildings or units. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which (removed buildings here) get rushed, but can petition the City Planner as to his own opinions. - To distribute funds to the Foreign Affairs Minister for the building of Embassies. The Minster of Economy has no direct control over which embassy is built first.

Changes in Bold

	10-10-2002 12:09									#14
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Sorry to insist, but the funds for rushing units should be allocated to the Military who can choose until the last moment to change his mind and rather upgrade.

	10-10-2002 17:38									#15
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I disagree, the SMC should petition the City Planner. Unit production is assigned by the City Planner, and the SMC requests cities to BEGIN producing units. I don't see rushing should be handled any differently.

Anyone else care to say something to break our deadlocked opinions here?

	10-10-2002 19:11									#16
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My suggestion is the MoE has to budget buy percentage rather then numbers. That way, people can plan for the future and apporpriate accordingly. So if a Minister wants to rush a building or unit, they could have cash in reserve (EX: 30 Lytons from last turn) plus current (EX: 15% of tax revenue) funds. It eliminates the problem of having to always request more funds from the MoE during a peace situation.

Edits to the Admendment are in your format:

quote: - To distribute funds to Minister of Military for the Upgrading or Rushing of Units. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which units will be upgraded, however. - To distribute funds to the City Planner for the rushing of buildings (or units). The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which (removed buildings here) get rushed, but can petition the City Planner as to his own opinions.

If the SMC wants to rush a unit, let the MoD use their budget allocated by the MoE. The CP still has the choice to produce units. What happens when a unit is in production should be under the jurisdiction of the MoD. If there is a war situation, the MoE could easily inject more money into the MoD.

	11-10-2002 20:39									#17
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hi ,

we should try to minimize unit rushing , and use the money to buy buildings , and right now we should start to save some for the future , .....

have a nice day

	11-10-2002 21:08									#18
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Panag, it is nice to see you on again.

This is not on what we SHOULD be doing, but rather who is in charge of DECIDING that job.

	11-10-2002 23:57									#19
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OK, one final? time. Is this one ready now?

quote: The positions of Minister of Trade and Minister of Finance are hereby dissolved by this amendment. In their place is the creation of a new office, the Ministry of the Economy. The functions of the Ministry of Economy will precisely be : - To adjust the sliders in agreement with the People or the President. These two get actually to decide who should get what budget. The minister of economy should only give documented advice. - To check if cities produce a good amount of money, and petition the city planner to build marketplaces and banks where it has to be. The minister of economy has no direct power on cities however. - To check if resources and luxuries are well dispatched in the empire, and to petition the minister of public works if different. The minister of economy has no direct power on workers. - To haggle gold amounts in a trade decided by the Foreign Affairs Minister. The Minister of Economy must agree to all trades involving cash, luxuries, or resources that are proposed by the Foreing Affairs Minister. - To distribute funds to Minister of Military for the Upgrading or Rushing of Units. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which units will be upgraded or rushed, however. - To distribute funds to the City Planner for the rushing of buildings. The Minister of Economy has no direct control over which get rushed, but can petition the City Planner as to his own opinions. - To distribute funds to the Foreign Affairs Minister for the building of Embassies. The Minster of Economy has no direct control over which embassy is built first.

	12-10-2002 01:15									#20
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It looks to be a fair and balanced compromise. MoE holds the money, the others makes requests. The others can build X, the MoE cannot.

But... I f I had to quibble...

- To check if cities produce a -- (good amount of money) to surplus --, and petition the city planner to build marketplaces and banks where it has to be. The minister of economy has no direct power on cities however.

Take it if you want. I won't start a poll on it.

	12-10-2002 02:45									#21
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Actually, I like the "good ammout of money" wording better.

With 100% of our money going to taxes, cities that are net drainers probably can't be imporved much until they grow.

And Court Houses and Police Stations should be added to the list. The current Economic Minister has been successful finding cities where Court Houses are highly useful to reduce corruption, increasing our cash coffers.

	12-10-2002 02:58									#22
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Good. This will make easy for the MoE to maintain the record of what really costs the military, and how it evolves over time, turns and terms.

	12-10-2002 03:32									#23
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joncnunn --

You're right. But how do we quantify " a good amount" and what is "a good amount" depending on government, city imporves, etc...

A surplus in a Civ City would be (commerce+science)-(city improvement+corruption). If its 1 Lyton, it is a surplus. But we all know everyone wants more, so the MoE could give word to the CP in increase the surplus by X%. However, it is a firm indicator to know if a city in the black.

But, like I said... I'm not going to run a poll...

DAVOUT --

As to cost of the Military. You can find out right now! Use my MilCalc at: http://www.luckyorange.com

It what I made for us when joining Apolyton. It can give all sorts of figures regarding the military in any Civ game.

Especially with all these whispers about "Emperor Aggie I"...

	12-10-2002 03:47									#24
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How to quantify a good amount ?

As you know, the MoE has established a standard measure : the amount of gold/person/turn. I suppose that he keeps an eye on the cities with an amount of gold/person/turn lower that the average.

Of course, the amendment cannot use a more precise definition because of all changes which can be appropriate in that matter (technically or conceptually).

	12-10-2002 03:55									#25
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Orange,

I will look with interest on your baby; what I have in mind is the appraisal of each term; this appraisal should have a financial side showing how the money has been invested in units, tech purchase, luxury purchase, buildings (splitted in military, culture, happiness), etc. So, behind political declarations and promises, the people could see how those promises translate financially.

	12-10-2002 05:02									#26
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quote: this appraisal should have a financial side showing how the money has been invested in units, tech purchase, luxury purchase, buildings (splitted in military, culture, happiness), etc. So, behind political declarations and promises, the people could see how those promises translate financially.

Now there is a calculator just waiting to be made! It would also be an excellent campagin question.

	16-10-2002 18:22									#27
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Anyone else have anything to say on this? Is it ready?