09-10-2002 21:37									#1
	Submarine warfare Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I was wondering, has anyone here been attacked by sub-launched Tactical Nucs? In my experience the AI hasn't used submarines very well. Mostly isolated attacks against big warships. Usually ends up badly for the attacking submarine. Usually after the first sub attack I defend my battle groups with subs, and presto, problem solved. Of course this makes me wonder about the AI's ability to use subs to launch tacticle nucs. Thus eliminating a major part of modern naval warfare, hunting down and destroying enemy boomers with my attack boats.

On a similar note, will you be more concerend about a sub launched tac nuc in MP? It seems that there could be alot of very cool "cat and mouse" submarine action. Your subs are scouring the ocean for my subs while I am trying to sneak in close enough to launch a suprise first strike. Of course the same would go for me looking for your subs...

	09-10-2002 21:52									#2
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I've never seen an AI tac nuke launch from a sub, no. I haven't been nuked in a loooooong time, though.

As for MP, I'm no expert on such things, but I suspect that very few (if any) MP games will make it to the modern age.

-Arrian

	09-10-2002 22:05									#3
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Never seen it, but I have relatively little experience with nukes in general. I have seen large fleets of AI subs attack me though... quite a surpprise.

	09-10-2002 23:12									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Well I don't know about nukes, but the AI can get sneaky with those freaking subs! Check this out...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=63560

	10-10-2002 02:58									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that you would be able to start MP games from any time period??? If so then Sub stratagy could be quite useful. If you have to start every game at 3000 bc then Arrian is quit right in assuming the games would not get to the modern age. Some people around here are uber-agressive in their warmongering.

As for PrinceBimz, I read your thread. That poor flat top!!! I have always lived in fear of my carriers being sunk. Thats why I always have them travel with a battleship. It's good to see that the AI can use subs some what effectivly.

	10-10-2002 03:37									#6
	Remove this text

I have seen incoming nukes (my SDI stopped all 4 of them, yeah!). I couldn't tell whether they were Tac Nukes or ICBMs. They only had 3 ICBMs so I know they launched a mix.

While they had an ABUNDANCE of nuke subs, some of their intended targets would have been in range of accessible territory so may not have been sub-launched.

	11-10-2002 02:11									#7
	Put an end to popups!

So, who around here even uses Subs? I know that I do. I love the things. I find them usefull for scouting the enemy coast line while at peace. I also like to use them to shadow the ships of enemy civs. That way when war starts I can eliminate their navy with one giant attack.

	11-10-2002 03:24									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Nuke subs are great (especially since they are 10/5/5 in my universe*), especially for their stealth and being able to detect other subs.

I prefer to have an advance warning when an invasion/bombardment fleet is approaching so I can gather my forces. Subs make for great pickets, though I keep my ironclads and frigates for picket duty also. I prefer to use modern surface units to stop them.

*In my universe, all modern naval units except old submarines & carriers also have blitz, BB's defend with 16, and AEGIS have a 12 defense.

	11-10-2002 05:13									#9
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Rarely use them, but I tend to have min water in my maps.

	11-10-2002 14:02									#10
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I modded mine so but I still do not use them much, AFAIR neither does the AI.

So long....

	11-10-2002 15:43									#11
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I saw the AI use some subs in AU 106, quite many of them actually. They sunk or wonded plenty of battleships for me. My unescorted invasion transports sailed right into a wolfpack of subs at a crucial moment. It was in a narrow straight about 10 tiles wide. Since I had air dominance, I neglected to use escort. They stopped my invasion so that I had to make peace without my preferred goals achieved. Well, I won by culture 10 turns later, but those subs thought me a lesson: Bring some destroyers with your transports!

	12-10-2002 02:00									#12
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I'm going to 'test' a mod in my next game.

Adding the following

Submarine
bombard 4, range 1, rof 2
lethal sea bombardment

Nuke Sub
bombard 8, range 2, rof 3
lethal sea bombardment

This is to simulate a submarine's ability to attack and then slip away. I'm not sure if the AI will make use of them, but I'm hoping it will.

	12-10-2002 02:27									#13
	Remove this text

Qilue,
Giving submarines bombardment capability has been a great idea since the beginning of the game. EXCEPT that you will find the AI bombarding land targets with their torpedoes. When you are in a bind, you will be doing it too.

I considered it some 10-11 months ago, almost implemented it, and said "just never mind."

	12-10-2002 22:52									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, the AI does use tact. nuke sub combo. I've had it used against me before. Its easy to tell weather the AI used a tact. or ICBM..... the tact. nuke is thinner and its explosion isn't as big as the ICBM.

	15-10-2002 01:08									#15
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Well, thats good to know. I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for Nuc Subs now.

	16-10-2002 03:32									#16
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the idea of sub bombardment doesn't sit well with me, now if you mod the sub so it can load up lots of cruse missles, i can absolutly see that. and then you could also load up tac nukes and well

	16-10-2002 03:37									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hah! i just become a Warlord!

strange to say i am a warlord and have little 7-up dots dancing around. perhaps i will make up for this by demanding tribute for my patience

	16-10-2002 19:27									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Congrats solomyr on the promotion. I think that is reason to celebrate!!!!

Now, back on topic. I have to agree with you 100%. Giving subs bombard capabilitys just dosn't sound right. Subs are not known for their naval guns. However, what if you gave them hidden nationality? It would make the seas a much more dangerous place.

Might be kinda unbalancing though...

	18-10-2002 00:23									#19
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Anaximander,

Guess you haven't checked out the latest toys in Jane's. They have had very long range torpedoes and guided missles launched from a sub for over 20 years now.

Remember the Falkland Islands ? The General Belgrano, an Argentine heavy cruiser was sunk by a torpedo from over the horizon. The British sub had been shadowing it and one torpedo sent it to the bottom...

I think a much higher attack value would be more appropriate that a bombardment cap. What I would love to see is a nuclear sub being able to carry cruise missles or ICBM's as the Russian and US subs do already.


D.

ps: Solomyr, Congratulations new Warlord.

	18-10-2002 02:21									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Actually, I own Jane's latest book on Submarines. Got it for a history paper over WWI U-Boats and ended up reading the damn thing cover to cover. So to answer your question Gen.Dragolen, yes I am familiar with capibilities of long range torpedos and guided missles. However, I still think that giving them bombardment would be a bad idea.

Nuc Subs CAN carry nuc missles. They are just the tactical varity. This fits in very well with reality. What I can't recall is if subs can cary cruise missles. I think they can but I can't remember... I know they did in Civ II because I used them quite a bit.

	18-10-2002 03:19									#21
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Yes, modern subs carry cruise missiles IRL. Many sub-launched cruise missiles were used against Serbia. (In Civ3, nuclear subs only carry TacNukes).

	21-10-2002 07:31									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Anaximander Nuc Subs CAN carry nuc missles. They are just the tactical varity. This fits in very well with reality. What I can't recall is if subs can cary cruise missles. I think they can but I can't remember... I know they did in Civ II because I used them quite a bit.

I don't know about CIV3 (sub's carrying cruise missiles) but I remember the highlights of my CIV2 experience were subs loaded with cruise missiles. There wasn't anything bad about having a ton of subs loaded with a ton of missiles to waste your opponent while your marines and armor sweep in for the kill!