10-10-2002 12:11									#1
	How to counter the horseman rush Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OK so the AI has made me lazy. I admit I use horseman rushes. But of course we will be playing human players. And people often told me in civ2 mp rushes can be countered. I never had civ2 gold so I cannot say for sure.

So what can be done to counter fast unit rushes (horseman, knights, riders, calvary, tanks etc.)? And what can be done to counter that counter. What is the optimum attack force?

enlighten me

	10-10-2002 16:09									#2
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Counter-attack. Build a "defensive" force of fast movers too.

In addition, the much maligned catapults, etc. work good in a defensive role.

Remember to build your cities in defendable spots. Putting it on a hill with walls does increase the defense.

Contrary to what Speedy says, :P the late game will get more defensive. I figured with the new buildings and radar towers an maximally defending Mech Infantry can have a defense as high as 67.5. In that case the question becomes, "How the hell do I dislodge that?"

	10-10-2002 16:32									#3
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Horseman attacks veteran fortified spearman--->
retreats leaving one or two HP on the spearman---> repeat X times.
Next turn take all wounded horseman with your own.

	10-10-2002 17:44									#4
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yeah, a fortified spear will have a higher defense then a horseman's attack.

Defense in general has a lot of advantages: closer to centers of production, closer to barracks for healing, fortification/city/terrain defensive bonuses, etc. An attacking force needs to be superior (tech, numbers, strategy, etc) to succeed; only an unprepared defender will fall easily to strike units.

	10-10-2002 20:46									#5
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quote: Contrary to what Speedy says, :P the late game will get more defensive. I figured with the new buildings and radar towers an maximally defending Mech Infantry can have a defense as high as 67.5. In that case the question becomes, "How the hell do I dislodge that?"

I have one answer to that Randolph...


N U K U L A R - W E P O N Z ! ! !


MUH HA HA HAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAAAAA!!!

BAHHAHA HAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

	10-10-2002 23:37									#6
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theoretically my horseman should never defeat a spearman, esp in a city. But they do all the time.

but of course if the city is on hills, it becomes quite difficult.

Is it viable to build that many cities on hills? Does it affect their production in any way? The disadvantage of course is I can't build a mine on that hill. What other things does that affect?

And radar towers, I didn't even realize we had them . those could be of some use playing against humans.

	10-10-2002 23:39									#7
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It does seem the best defense is a good offense. That is what I've always use. Aside from the token spearman, it is silly to defend your nation with just defensive unit.

Even the ai can whallop me if I allow them access to my territory. If they pin me to my cities I'm screwed. This is why I always wage war on their territory if at all possible.

So my theory is the best way to counter the horseman rush, is to have horseman of your own.

	10-10-2002 23:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Is it viable to build that many cities on hills? Does it affect their production in any way? The disadvantage of course is I can't build a mine on that hill. What other things does that affect?

A town on a hill generates 2 food and one shield plus trade as normal. The only other big negative I've discovered is that it is not considered irrigated for building an irrigation chain.

	11-10-2002 01:53									#9
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yes. the roaming "fast mover offensive defense". I remember pleading for it in the demogame....


beautiful

anyway, i'm thinking fortresses may be more valueable in MP for the "free shot" it could give. if your border with a hostile human is 10 tiles wide, 5 fortresses could easily slow them down long enough for you to notice their advances, and route troops as needed.

	11-10-2002 03:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident And radar towers, I didn't even realize we had them . those could be of some use playing against humans.

We don't, they will come with PTW.

	11-10-2002 07:25									#11
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yup, indeed, fortresses will become much more important.
Huge battles in the open field, just to gain a few tiles on a choke point.

hmm, at last, combined arms and invassions from several sides . At least until railroads

	11-10-2002 09:22									#12
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stacking will be even more important, but human players will prolly force you to divert and build more than couple of stacks since if it is just one stack, their offensive can avoid it or let zillions of defender in city try its luck.

	11-10-2002 09:25									#13
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The key is to have more info on your opponent that he has on you.

	11-10-2002 14:23									#14
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If you are the celts: reply with a swordman rush

Last edited by kolpo on 11-10-2002 at 14:41

	12-10-2002 01:06									#15
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I will probably fear the Mongol keshik rush the most because of how fast they are gonna be, combined with how cheap they are gonna be.

	12-10-2002 05:22									#16
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The key to stopping a horsemen rush is mostly having enough vet (hopefully) spears in your outer cities. The last thing ur opponent wants to do is help u generate leaders while u defend sucessfully, so the presence of enough defensive units will make your opponent think twice.

Knight era: in addition to enough defensive units, enough fast moving units of ur own to defend will help, since with 100 culture u can force a move 2 unit to expose himself before attacking (3 move UU's could still be a problem here) a few catapults can help too.

Cavalry: lots of artillery and get railroaded quick. Artillery allows u to damage the first few attacking units. Railroad can let u stack ur defense of the vulnerable citise very rapidly.

Tanks: Air power and artillery will be important by this point. Tank could be last more to mop up duty after your stack of 20 (mech) infantry/artillery finish pounding the city. Bombers will only be effective in masses, and in locations like flat terrian where arty is harder to defend.

	12-10-2002 11:38									#17
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The best way to defend it is to meet the opponent on the field of battle instead of letting him get to your cities. A similar offensive army on your part will stop that silliness.

	12-10-2002 20:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The best way to defend it is to meet the opponent on the field of battle instead of letting him get to your cities. A similar offensive army on your part will stop that silliness.

Ming, I challenge you to a game of Civ3 PTW, mano y mano.

If I lose, I'll give you TEN AMERICAN DOLLARS.

if you lose, you give me YOUR MOD POWERS FOR A DAY, AND THE PROMISE OF NO RETALLIATION FOR ANYTHING I DID WITH MY TEMPORARY POWERS.

	12-10-2002 22:03									#19
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Are we gonna play for money now

Mark: I bet there is some money to be made here :dollar:

Open a special forum and get 10% of the bets

	13-10-2002 14:14									#20
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UK... Not enough money on your side for what you are asking in return

	15-10-2002 05:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The best way to defend it is to meet the opponent on the field of battle instead of letting him get to your cities. A similar offensive army on your part will stop that silliness.

Do you play Civ 3 much? I think it's better to let them close to your cities where your artillery is protected and able to damage enemy units, while remaining safe inside the city. Outside the city they are toast really easily because of their slow movement.

	15-10-2002 05:31									#22
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that's assuming you use artillary. I still haven't gotten around to using them

But in the ancient age letting the enemy close within your cities is a death wish.

I find Vet Spearman do not defend well against horseman. They should, but they don't. Even within a city with wall the ai will tear my vet spearman apart. I never let the ai withing my territory. Or if they do get in my territory I never let them next to my cities.

	15-10-2002 09:18									#23
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this topic brings up an interesting point. The hardly-used impi is very good for fending off horsemen attacks(horsemen then can't retreat, making horsemen equivilent to archers). I also find charriots and aztec warriors good for counter attack too.

as for kninghts, the sammuri UU is incredible for defence and attack or just wieght for gunpowder.

The secret to defending against cavalry is a decent defence of musketmen (2-3), fortified, walled.... And an easy way of counter attack against the cavalry. (i prefer swordsmen or longbowmen).

im not really sure with tanks, by then there tends to not be very much less to attack me.l

	15-10-2002 20:43									#24
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"How to counter the horseman rush"

Playing Zululand or Greece or maybe Rome (though this requires some luck with getting iron) would be a good plan.

The Aztecs offer interesting pillage 'n run possibilities. It's hard to build a unit when you can't connect the necessary resouce.

-Arrian

	16-10-2002 17:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Do you play Civ 3 much? I think it's better to let them close to your cities where your artillery is protected and able to damage enemy units, while remaining safe inside the city. Outside the city they are toast really easily because of their slow movement.

I actually think it depends on when technologically speaking, you are fighting. If its in the age of infantry, and I've got enough artillery, I let their cavalry go straight for my cities, where they get chewed up. But if they have tanks I fly out to meet them on the field, since infantry is crappy against tanks. This kind of switching in tactics happens for me all through histroy, as the progression between slow/defencive and fast/offensive units goes back and forth.

	16-10-2002 20:24									#26
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Easy solution - play a Mil/Sci Civ (Deutschland) and charge with archer/spear stacks before your nearby opponents get horses. They can't rush you with horsemen if you've destroyed them already

	16-10-2002 22:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone I actually think it depends on when technologically speaking, you are fighting. If its in the age of infantry, and I've got enough artillery, I let their cavalry go straight for my cities, where they get chewed up. But if they have tanks I fly out to meet them on the field, since infantry is crappy against tanks. This kind of switching in tactics happens for me all through histroy, as the progression between slow/defencive and fast/offensive units goes back and forth.

Of course the problem against cavs and riders and Mas is that damn 3rd move

Perhaps this will force more cultural development, to get 100 cpts to expand out.

Hmm. Maybe I would have 3 rings around each city. closest-forest, then plain, then forest. That way the cavs would end either on the plains or the forest adjacent to the city. On plains they could be wiped out, on the forest I could bombard to kill, then mop up with the regulars.

Of course, that is a somewhat useless idea, as it would take too long to develop and the game will probably be over before cavs

Anyway, will be interesting

I love how the game switches from offensive to defensive eras and back again, very cool.

	17-10-2002 13:36									#28
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There could be a new use for planting forest here

	10-11-2002 18:22									#29
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ANother question. Is it possible to do give some Defensebonus to special units without manipulating the Defense values? I mean that the Spearman has a defense of 2 against all, but 4 against horsed units? Like in CivII "2x vs. horsemen" ?

	11-11-2002 01:03									#30
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone I have one answer to that Randolph... N U K U L A R - W E P O N Z ! ! ! MUH HA HA HAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAAAAA!!! BAHHAHA HAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

I guess that solves the horseman rush


Anyway Ive noticed when i nuke a city all it does is kill the population. And only damages the units, Umm well adirect hit from a ICBM you arent gonna be damaged!