10-10-2002 17:27									#1
	Suggestion : simplification of polls Put an end to popups!

I though we could merge some of the duties of DoBP and DoTC : workers placement and in-radius terraforming. We could make a unique poll like this : options would be for different terraforming, for each square. The results of this poll would also be the order of worker placements.
ie :
NW of base : Forest 7votes
NW of base : Farm/Solar 0votes
NW of base : Farm/Mine 0 votes

W of base : Forest 2votes
W of base : Farm/Solar 4votes
W of base : Farm/Mine 0votes

N of base : Forest 0vote
N of base : Farm/Solar 1vote
N of base : Farm/Mine 4votes

Such a poll would be read like this :
1st worker : NW
2nd worker : W
3rd worker : N
1st terraforming : Forest NW,
2nd terraforming : Farm/Solar W
3rd terraforming : Farm/Mine North

Thus there would be only one poll instead of two. This would depend on the DoTC, on the DIE, on a new directorate or on Governors.
We could also apply a protocol for this : one poll per base and per term.

My final suggestion is to make it depend on governors, while the DoTC will actually keep a thread updated with links to all these polls, and poll for new bases location or bases without a governor. I think that would greatly simplify the game, while remaining very democratic.

Please feedback, and I might make it an amendment or a constitution change when/if appropriate.

Last edited by Pandemoniak on 10-10-2002 at 17:34

	10-10-2002 20:07									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I guess you mean cooperation between D of I&E and D of T&C. It seems necessary indeed. About all my polls indicate a clear preference for mineral focus and consequently forestation, while your polls indicate there is a relatively big part of our faction wanting farm/solar terraformation...

	10-10-2002 20:39									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree with the idea but i would like to hold governers out of the picture for now because we arent that big i was thinking about around the 8-10 bases per governer but not just yet

	11-10-2002 00:51									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

DBTS> I think we can start governors now, with one governor per base. We must not have governors, but that would be helpful. Until now, their only duty would be this kind of poll.
*and after all, its my right to design people to help me in my task, I just need Maniac's approval to make it work perfectly.

Maniac> Its not just a cooperation, its a merge between two branches of our directorates.

	11-10-2002 01:47									#5
	Remove this text

ok but i would like it if it was constitutionly determined and that they would be elected (atleast in the future)

	11-10-2002 01:50									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sure, it is a democracy game ! If no one have more suggestions, I'll poll it to-morrow.

	11-10-2002 01:52									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

ok but what would there job be exactly? would they only poll on terraforming and workerplacements? and yes then the DEI and DTC are pretty useless you would only need a boss of all governers that would say who may use which crawler and former? or is this not the idea?

	11-10-2002 02:14									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword ok but what would there job be exactly? [QUOTE] Governors are elected persons, responsible to poll at least once a term for terraforming and worker placement. They are only aids to the main executive branches : DoTC and DIE. [QUOTE] would they only poll on terraforming and workerplacements?

Yes.

quote: and yes then the DEI and DTC are pretty useless you would only need a boss of all governers that would say who may use which crawler and former? or is this not the idea?

DEI and DoTC would keep their duty : they'll work for bases without governors as for every other duty that is currently theirs and is not done by the governor. It doesnt make DoTC nor DIE useless, since DoTC would deal with formers outside of base radius and colonization, plus the normal work for terraforming on bases without governors. Same for the DIE.

Plus it makes more tied-up elections, more roleplay, etc...

	11-10-2002 02:28									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Would such a change take effect in this term, or from the next one on?

And when you poll it, please make lists what will be the duties of the changed positions to make it more clear to us/me.

	11-10-2002 02:32									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think it can be effective this term, and Ill poll it very clearly dont worry

	11-10-2002 09:01									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm really against governors.

The only reason the C3DG tried governors was because of the huge level of micromanagement, and having them answering to the City Planner, which is a much larger position.

It's way too early in the game to be even considering this - the DoBP can do the job easily. If, at a later stage, we do need to revisit this, then perhaps we should go the whole hog, and have each person being a citizen of a certain region.

Until then, I think it's just going to be a pain in the butt, and a colossal waste of time.

	11-10-2002 12:02									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Darkness' Edge Until then, I think it's just going to be a pain in the butt, and a colossal waste of time.

Why would it be a waste of time while on the contrary we save time by simplification of polls ?

	11-10-2002 13:55									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good to see movement on simplification of Polls. I think it too early for governors.

When we reach size 20-25 then time to introduce. However when polling for the cooperation idea why not poll on governors as well

	11-10-2002 15:18									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

After some more thinking I'm with DE. The proposed system will create more and more complex polls compared to the system I'm currently using. Pandemoniak wants to reinstitute the system of polling every square of every base. Just like I have made some more general polls such as what should be the focus: nutrient/minerals and at what size should the focus switch, Pandemoniak should create some more general polls for his directorate. For example, he could make polls every month asking:

What should be the standard terraformation in the following tile:

rolling&rainy above 1000 metres, rolling&rainy below 100, flat&rainy above 1000... All those combinations with the option of farm&condenser, farm&solar, forest etcetera... The same can be done for rocky terrain and sea tiles etcetera. The Director should only have to do this once a month and can therefore concentrate on polling other matters such as colonization, special bonus tiles, how much former power to concentrate on what task... To know what tiles he should terraform first around a base, he could refer to the polls of D of IE regarding nutrient, mineral and in a while energy and specialists focus.

That's at least what I would do if I was D of TC. Less workload for the Director and less repititous polls but clear general decision making for the citizens.

	11-10-2002 17:47									#16
	Suffering from ads?

I agree with everything Maniac and Hercules said.

Pande - I really don't see how they'd save time. They're another batch of jobs which we have to fill. Considering we have to allow Justices to also be Directors because we have so few citizens, this seems a bit ridiculous. And then, if they're still to poll the people, which is the idea of a democracy game, then those polls still have to be made - whether by a governor or by the DoBP.

While we still have so few cities, the DoBP may as well make these polls. Otherwise we'll be spreading the perfectly manageable work of the DoBP over a whole load of portfolios, to be filled by citizens we don't have.

Keep in mind also that the C3DG, with all its members, at no stage implemented city governors. Only when they had a ton of cities did they implement regional governors - and the size of one of their regions wouldn't be much smaller than our entire empire now.

	11-10-2002 19:42									#17
	Remove this text

i am also against city governers but regional governers i am all for but i dont know if it is the right time we would only have on region

	12-10-2002 02:13									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes I am all for regional governors at the right time

	12-10-2002 11:37									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Hercules Yes I am all for regional governors at the right time

I am, in due course. Once we have as many cities as the C3DG does, the job will become too much for the DoBP - and then we will need regional governors to handle the micromanagement. At that time, we may wish to consider merging the DoBP and the DoIE into one portfolio, with all the regional governors doing both jobs, and answering to the one director.

I also agree with what DBTS just said.

	12-10-2002 18:52									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Do you read my posts ? It says clearly that governors have a roleplaying part, are not needed, must be considered as aids to DoTC, DIE plus optionnaly to the DoBP. Let me put it clearly :
GOVERNORS ARE FUN !
These polls concern both directorate of TC and IE, so to be sure theres no confusion (like one thought the other was doing it, or they both do a poll with different results), we give that task to common citizens, whom all work is to make one poll a month, and can have a nice signature syaing : "Governor of [CITYNAME]"

About polling for general directions or for every tile, I agree there is a debate. My arguments is that asking for a general direction is not enough precise. We can only adopt this if we change the constitution (erase the line "Directors must poll all major decisions, such as where to place the workers in a particular city. However, they can act on minor decisions without polling the people" ) or see terraforming and worker placements as minor decisions. Only the court or a referundum can decide such a thing.

	12-10-2002 19:27									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Then we need a referendum.
Governors are fun indeed. We could start a thread asking for volunteers, but I doubt we will get enough responses.

	13-10-2002 04:16									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Heavy stuff. But reform is needed. I need to look again at these proposals

	13-10-2002 04:21									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm not arguing that reform isn't needed. I'm arguing that it's not need YET.

Creating regions is good for roleplay - the C3DG proves that. But we currently don't have enough cities to do this. By December, we should have reached this.

We also don't have enough citizens to make city governors work - not to mention that that would become unmanageable within a couple of months, as we get more and more cities.

Wait until we've got the cities and citizens to make this work - and then do it properly.

	13-10-2002 15:25									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I am totally against city governers. i am for the idea of region governers but i dont not if it is the time for it but if someone comes with a good idea for the constitition and polls it then i will look at it!

	13-10-2002 18:39									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

DBTS you're totally against governors, but you just wrote in another thread that it would be fun to have a in-game location in the sign-up thread. Havent you understand yet that it is exaclty what I'm proposing ?

	13-10-2002 18:49									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

...now you are talking about to tinks.....i think.....i am not for the idea of letting on person control one base but i am for one person controlling multiple bases......and about that in-game location that just states where you live. do you want to make a city counsel of the people that live in the certain bases? If not then I am completely lost.....

	13-10-2002 18:56									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Governors are just aids to DoTC and DoEI and help simplifying the game, they do not control the base. The rest is roleplaying.

	13-10-2002 19:03									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i am still against one governer per base. i propose that we split the current faction up in two regions that then be led by governers.....IF the reform passes

	13-10-2002 19:11									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Then you should vote Merge Terraforming and Worker placement under something else and write in.