10-10-2002 22:32									#1
	Using 'Zoom to Home City' to adjust production Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't know if this trick is well known or not, but having recently discovered it, I thought I'd share.

In the City Display, if you click on a unit supported from another city you are given the option to Zoom to its home city in the display. This feature also works during the city processing phase at the beginning of a new turn. If you Zoom into the display of a city which has just built something, you can zoom from there to another city (via a supported unit) which has not yet been processed that turn and alter its production orders.

Why is this useful? To take advantage of newly discovered technology. In a recent game, I completed research on Automobile by delivering a couple of freights, ensuring this tech would be acquired after my first city contributed its science. I sent a supported unit from my SSC into my second most recently established city and rushbuilt something there. On the next turn, I zoomed into the second city, followed the link to my SSC, changed its production orders to Superhighways, then rushed it. This allowed me to build the SH in my SSC on the same turn I discovered Automobile. The extra science in the SSC from highways gave me a second tech that same turn. I did this again with Computers and Research Lab.

By using defense units supported by other cities, it's possible to set up a chain of links running through all cities and upgrade production orders in any city. I'd be interested in knowing if others have used this technique and for what purpose.

	10-10-2002 22:37									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Ooooooooohh. Neat trick. A subtle detail, in the overall scale of the game, but just the sort of detail that makes a champion player a champion player. Nice catch, Samson.

	10-10-2002 22:42									#3
	Tired of ads?

VERY nice catch!

SG[1]

	10-10-2002 22:56									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Nice ... and subtle !
But the link of defense units sytematicly from another city hurts my logic : It's a late influence of Civ I, where each unit out of his home city (even in another city) produces unhappiness !

	10-10-2002 23:13									#5
	Tired of ads?

Very nice ploy, samson!

I heard that there was a similar tactic that only worked in MGE. It allowed a city to build an extra copy of the unit it was currently ready to produce.

With new things to find out about it even now, Civ II continues to impress me as the deepest and the best, and I've been looking into a lot of other games that are out there.

	10-10-2002 23:39									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hey, solo! good to see you again. I agree with you about Civ2, it has real legs.

You might be interested to hear that I used this technique in an early-landing game I'm just finishing up, to crack the 20AD launch barrier. As you know, you can't build spaceship parts until 1 AD even if Apollo is already built, which made 20AD the earliest you could complete them. But in this game I used a chain of dilpomats linked through 25 cities to switch 24 of them from Wonders to SS parts and launched a 15-3-3-1-1-1 ship in 1 AD, now due to arrive at AC in 16 AD. Yeehaa!

SG, debeest, thanks. I agree it's not a trick to be used often, couple times a game perhaps, but it is cute.

JCP, the units can be anything, diplos, freights, whatever, they don't need to be military.

	11-10-2002 02:26									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

samson,

Congrats on 16 AD! Very good to see you again, too!

Too bad that spaceship parts are not available during BC years, since the early landing games were among the most challenging and enjoyable. We need another stimulating challenge like that.

After becoming a bit discouraged with Civ III, I've been trying many other games. What about yourself? Tried anything else, or are you just sticking with Civ II?

	11-10-2002 03:26									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Hi samson! ... smart thinking A nice wrinkle. Please post the save of your 16AD landing.

Hi solo! Good to have you back in (real) civilization!

With you two in town we might try a for an early landing succession game

---------------------

SG(2)

	11-10-2002 07:01									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

16 ad

We are in awe!

Fantastic trick, tho I imagine a full conquest game would lead to a blistered mouse clicking finger...

	11-10-2002 08:58									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

A similar trick was advocated by Julius Brenzaida in one of the succession games to alleviate the 'too many units' limit problem. Put all the obsolete units in a city near the bottom of the city list and arrange to rushbuy a useless improvement in that city. When the next turn comes up, the city window opens after the improvement is built, and you disband the obsolete units - your other cities can then fill the unit slots with modern units without the AI civs having the chance to bring the total number of units up to the 'too many units' point again. Result is the same number of units.. but better ones.

Pretty esoteric I know, but a similar concept. I hadn't thought about the 'zoom to home city approach' - that could work even better, albeit it would be a lot of work with multiple build orders! Good thinking to come up with that one, samson.

	11-10-2002 14:12									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

16 A.D.

Wow! We are not worthy!

SG[1]

	11-10-2002 19:26									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Solo - I bought Civ3 too, and was disappointed also. I like some of the concepts, but ...

Yeah, those early-landing games were fun. It was all the learning and discoveries that made it so for me. Right now, I'm trying to figure out what triggers the appearance of new supply commodities in cities, which is crucial to a strategy based on continuous trade without relying on rehoming freights. In my 16 AD game, I was able to keep my SSC in a state where it always had at least one supply commodity available to build thoughtout the game and managed things without rehoming. I think one of the triggers for commodity refreshment is the number of techs you have. It seems that for every 10th acquired tech you can get a new commodity after delivering a freight. So by timing freight deliveries to coincide with those discoveries you can refresh your supply.

SG(2) - thanks. Did you want a save from the end-game or the start?

SG(1), Marquis, -- thanks.

STYOM - Another way to exploit the Zoom thing... You could have your bottom-list city built a temple or something cheap and then continue to build it. This gets you into that city every turn when the illegal build message pops up. You can then Zoom to any city needing attention on any given turn. For example, someplace where barbs have appeared or another civ threatens, you zoom in and build the latest military unit and attack them on the same turn.

	11-10-2002 22:25									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

samson... great find! I hadn't heard that one yet. I will have to add it to my list.

And a real brilliant use for it. 16 AD... good job!

	12-10-2002 05:29									#14
	Remove this text

Samson,

I think the number of techs acquired is one likely trigger for refreshing commodities, but there were also some anomalies, such as situations where a city would keep producing certain commodities repeatedly, the best example being hides. In one OCC game I had this happen, and was able to zoom through the tech tree by making so many SSC deliveries of hides (maybe 30 or so!).

I remember that Xin Yu did some research about the subject of refrshing commodities, too. If I recall correctly, (which I am afraid is doubtful), if the SSC built a food caravan and delivered it to another city, commodities were refreshed. It may also be that it had to receive the food instead of delivering it. In any event, he did a lot of testing of this phenomena, so it might be worth trying to find the relevant thread.

One thing to consider is that rather than the number of techs being a trigger, it may just be the aquisition of particluar ones that shut off commodity supplies, much in the way that the pair of Invention and Navigation cut payoff amounts.

If my memory serves me correctly, I recall significant differences in the number and variety of commodities initially available from a city before the only choice left was food. One city (and usually it was my SSC!) would only yield the initial 3 or 4 commodities while others were good for many more, during the same time span of the same game. I also believe that the order in which commodity caravans are built may be another factor in the equation.

As for Civ III, there were some nifty new features, but most of what was done seemed to be aimed against the many exploits we had so much fun with in Civ II, with ICS and OCC being a prime examples. Lack of detail and depth was discouraging, too.

SG,

Thanks for the welcome back! I am still involved learning the in and outs of Europa Universalis II, which so far is much to my liking.

Prior to that I spent quite a bit of time on SimGolf, even though I am not a golfer and not much of a fan of the real game. I tried it on a whim, and ended up really enjoying the process of designing highly rated courses. Since they named the hardest difficulty level "Impossible", I'm afraid I used up too much of my spare time proving them wrong!

Other than that I'm looking forward to Rise of Nations, which should come out next Spring.

solo

	12-10-2002 05:42									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

samson is back, with 16AD in his pocket and solo on his heels. Halleluyah!

	12-10-2002 07:10									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi La Fayette,

Good to see another old friend here!

One game I tried for awhile was Empire Earth, which I remember you were interested in. Very ambitious, with so many units and eras, but gameplay was fairly simplistic. All the single AI opponent does is build and send waves of attackers in your direction, so you end up having to do the same since there isn't much else to do except gather resources, of which there are only a few. No trade or diplomacy at all, such as in Civ II. What there is in strategy is deciding how to allocate and spend resources, as there are very many options to choose from.

solo

	12-10-2002 10:16									#17
	Tired of ads?

They always come back.



Never did get impossible in SimGolf down.Then again,I didn't read the strategy guide you wrote.At least I did learn where I went wrong.Too slow building.One day I will go back and beat it myself.

	12-10-2002 12:34									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

Hi solo!

I haven't tried Empire Earth yet. The reason why is that I made very good use of the civ3 CD that you sent me.
I seem to be one of the very few players who play civ2 and civ3, half and half, and enjoy both.
IMO civ3 was probably released a bit too soon (and most of the beta testing was made by Poly and Civfanatics players between october 2001 and june 2002), but after the 1.29f patch it has become quite well balanced and a real challenge.
My problem is that I am probably some kind of SlowLearner (hello SlowThinker !) and I find Emperor level so challenging that I haven't tried a single game at deity level yet.

(La fayette, playing civ2)

(La Fayette, playing civ3)

	12-10-2002 14:34									#19
	Support Apolyton

I would pay to play as well as samson...

The other games: Seem kinda similar to Civ2: Empire Earth, Rise of Nations, Europa Universalis II. Would like to check 'em out... But some or one of them were made by the ones who made Civ3??

EU II looks especially interesting. Did Europeans make it?

This thread also made me remember Civ1 which I didn't play much. I miss the City View in Civ1. It was better than Civ2 and Civ3 imo. Civ3 I don't like, but maybe the 1.29f patch makes a difference like La Fayette said...

Historical games are always interesting. There is a new board game out now which is built on the PC Civ. Other interesting boardgames are Advanced Civilization, History of the World, Diplomacy, Junta,...

	12-10-2002 19:59									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

Lars-E,

EU II is made by Strategy First, located in Canada. From what I've seen so far, they really try to live up to the implied promise in their company name.

La Fayette,

One wonky feature of Empire Earth are the priest and sorcerer units, allowing the player or AI to cast spells or cause natural events such as hurricanes or volcano eruptions! It was fun, but it seemed odd to throw this kind of hocus pocus you would expect from fantasy or role-playing games into a simulation of human history.

Your point about Civ III having become a really good game is well taken. It think it would have become one of my favorites if I had never tried Civ II first. And unlike many other games, the company continues to support it with good patches based on player advice and observations.

Hi Smash,

I have you to thank for recommending SimGolf. I don't blame you either, for not reading my strategy guide, because after I finished writing it and printed all the installments, it came to over 50 pages! After looking back over it's contents, I could only find 5 or 6 good pieces of advice! However, I did have a lot of fun with it and with building a successful course at the impossible level.

Last edited by solo on 12-10-2002 at 20:08

	13-10-2002 00:50									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Lars-E, there's been a board game called Civilization for about 20 years. It's very much like a very simple version of Civ, and when I encountered Civ for the first time, I assumed that the computer game was derived directly from the board game. (Then I read Guns, Germs, and Steel, and I realized both games are just good simulations of the same real world.)

	13-10-2002 14:38									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I know that game, deebest. I've been playing it for years. I call it Advanced Civilization because at some point you could buy extra trade cards.

But there's also a new boardgame out that is based on the PC Civ:

http://www.eaglegames.net/

	13-10-2002 15:43									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

samson, can you provide a 4000BC.sav for your 16 AD game? If you post it here ppl can download it.

	13-10-2002 20:01									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ming - thanks. It was a real surprise to find this trick still unknown after all this time. I half-expected a bunch of "oh, yeah ... we know all about that"s.

Solo - Yes, I've read Xin Yu's ideas on trade and refreshing commodities, very insightful. In fact, I've read about everything I could find in the archives on Trade. Some useful stuff there, and some misinformation too.

Hides is a special case. Hides never become unavailable, i.e. appear in parentheses as "(Hides)", although they do eventually become replaced when an event triggers a change of commodities for that city. I suspect this is a programming glitch. Of the 16 commodities, Hides is the first and thus likely represented by. If the "unavailable" state is represented by negating a commodity's numeric code, then Hides cannot be made unavailable (0 has no negative).

Some algorithms in Civ2 show undoubted use of randomness, such as hut-tipping. Others are merely simple, but obscure. And still others are complex (like caravan payments) but ultimately decipherable. I suspect that commodity supply and demand is not a random thing, but is determined by fixed but not yet understood rules. I hope to unravel this.

LaFayette - Hey! good to see you again.

Lars-E, thanks for the compliment. And yes, I'll post the starting save, along with some notes on the game, soon as I finish them.

Last edited by samson on 13-10-2002 at 20:22

	23-10-2002 03:28									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Indeed very good trick.

If you want to save the burden of position units in other cities, my CivManager utility is able to do most of the jobs like rush building and selling improvements.

I haven't visited here for several days. I'm playing a MUD game and find it very interesting. As a result I'm developing the concept of a Civ2 Online game. When I have enough to say I'll post here about the concept. (For those of you who don't know MUD, it is a server on which you can log on and develop your own character while chattering with other players. )

	31-10-2003 06:33									#26
	Suffering from ads?

Similar tricks that exploit the pre-turn stage are here:

quote: Originally posted by RAH rules Stealing Shields - Suppose you have several cities close to one another. If you have all units stationed in these cities hosted by the first of which (in establishing sequence), maybe you can save the maintainance shields for them by re-host units while processing cities. Here's a demonstration. You have 3 cities A B C, in which A is your first city. All of your units in cities B and C are hosted by A. You rush build non-military units or buildings in B and C so that at the beginning of the next turn you'll be sent to city screens of B and C. While in city screens, you re-host units inside cities to B and C, respectively. Since B and C are processed before A, you save the maintainance shields for those units. You then move units in B and C back to A and re-host them before moving back, so that you can save again the next turn. Use of this trick to produce wonders in the same turn as discovering the requisite tech is also disallowed.

	31-10-2003 18:49									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I thought this was a new thread for a second. But yes, there are a considerable number of ways to exploit this. But as stated, they are considered illegal in our MP games.

Another way to exploit it is if you were a few gold short to rush buy something, you could use this to collect the few gold that you needed from the first few cities in the rotatation and "skip ahead" to spend it. It was used most at the beginning of the game when you were stretching every single gold to buy up racks to speed up those first few settlers. Another negative side effect of this being used was the potential for a considerable slow down of the city maint phase of everyone's turn. Not just doing it but making sure it you got it straight.

	01-11-2003 01:12									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I thought this was a new thread for a second.

I added this to the GL and so wanted the thread is 'complete'.

Anyway I consider these trick so laborious that they really deserve a prohibition.

	01-11-2003 01:17									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

double post...

	01-11-2003 01:38									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The laborious nature of these is usually what puts the desire to prohibit them over the top. We'll usually get some lively discussion favoring either side, but then one side will heat up and then somebody will reiterate the possible impact on speed of game play, and that usually gets everyone to agree to prohibit it. It's amazing how many things have been prohibited due to time constraints. More so than the fact that they're just sleazy.