27-10-2002 09:47									#31
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Picts aren't Celtic, as far as language is concerned.

Scots, on the other hand, are.

	27-10-2002 17:47									#32
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Ok, I always thought they were Celtic, but now I know they weren't Celts.

Why are the Celts in the game anyway? All right, all right, they did play a role in world history. Without them, the Roman Empire would easily conquered the territory beyond the Po much earlier. But they aren't really a Civ, not even a confederation of tribes. No, it are just some seperated tribes with the same culture, language and warfare methods. They're even more seperated then the Greek Poleis (= city states) ánd kinda primitive, too. So, I don't think they should be in the game as a Civ (but, for example, like Barbarians) and there are much Civs who should....

	27-10-2002 21:59									#33
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The Celts were diffenently more disunited then most of their neighbors (the exception would be the Germanic tribes) but the Celts most certainly do belong in Civilization. They were the first European group begin working Iron, the produced the first trans-European trading network, Celtic art was the first great non-meditereanian art found in Europe, they were great travelers and explorers who even made it to eastern China, and they were actually quite civilized.

The people lived in fortified villaged protected by wood pallicades, they practiced intensive agroculture & animal husbandry, they bathed regularly and used lye soap, they brewed beer instead of the wine the Greeks & Romans prefered, and the gold jewelery & metal drinking vessals made by their artisians was traded all over Europe.

Combine those facts along with their numerous military feats plus we must remember that they built Stonehendge (one of the true ancient wonders of the world which predates the founding of classical Greece) and I think we have a pretty good case that the Celts belong in Civilization.

	28-10-2002 04:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Celts were ... great travelers and explorers who even made it to eastern China,

???

Anyway, if there's a case for the Iroquois being a civ, then certainly the Celts, Sioux, Bantu, Polynesians, etc are all civs.

	28-10-2002 08:22									#35
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Originally posted by Oerdin
... they brewed beer instead of the wine the Greeks & Romans prefered, and the gold jewelery & metal drinking vessals made by their artisians was traded all over Europe.
... [/QUOTE]
I was greatly surprised that it was in Ireland that beer was INVENTED!

	28-10-2002 09:01									#36
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Beer was not invented by the Celts. The first people we know to brew beer came from Persia but the Celts never the less advanced beer making by adding yeast to their beer while brewers before them relied upon wild yeasts to ferment their brew. That little fact alone greatly increase the quality and taste of beer for everyone who followed.

	28-10-2002 10:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Combine those facts along with their numerous military feats plus we must remember that they built Stonehendge (one of the true ancient wonders of the world which predates the founding of classical Greece) and I think we have a pretty good case that the Celts belong in Civilization.

Now I think you'e overegging the pudding: there is no hard evidence that the Celts erected Stonehenge- or Avebury, or Arbor Low Henge, or Callanish. That they used the sites is certainly true to an extent, given that even an 'alien' religion like Christianity later 'used' Neolithic sites as bases for churches (in Wiltshire, Cornwall, and so on) in a politic attempt at recycling sacred sites. But certainly as far as deserving a place in the game, then I agree with you- their chariots had iron bound wheels, for instance, and a proper axle/wheel formation, and they appear to have created the first barrels bound with iron hoops, so beer drinkers the world over owe them a great deal...

In terms of knowledge, the astronomical flair and science displayed in the Coligny Calendar produced a more reliable calendar than the Julian one- and in French there are still words relating to agriculture derived from the ancient Gallic tongue- as well as a significant number of place names, such as the rivers, and others derived from a Gallic word for salt.
Also, with the exceptions of screws and scissors, the hand tools we use today were all used by the Celts- as were some horse fittings such as snaffle bits, whose design has hardly changed.

	03-11-2002 18:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Celts were diffenently more disunited then most of their neighbors (the exception would be the Germanic tribes) but the Celts most certainly do belong in Civilization. They were the first European group begin working Iron, the produced the first trans-European trading network, Celtic art was the first great non-meditereanian art found in Europe, they were great travelers and explorers who even made it to eastern China, and they were actually quite civilized. The people lived in fortified villaged protected by wood pallicades, they practiced intensive agroculture & animal husbandry, they bathed regularly and used lye soap, they brewed beer instead of the wine the Greeks & Romans prefered, and the gold jewelery & metal drinking vessals made by their artisians was traded all over Europe. Combine those facts along with their numerous military feats plus we must remember that they built Stonehendge (one of the true ancient wonders of the world which predates the founding of classical Greece) and I think we have a pretty good case that the Celts belong in Civilization.

Indeed they were the first Europeans that worked with Iron, but other Civs did it much earlier. They didn't produced the first trans-European trading network. The Egyptians already had connections with England and Ireland. Also, on the same time, the Phunicians went to middle Africa and had big connections about African gold . The Celtic art was the first non-mediterreanean art in Europe. That's ok with me, but who else was living there? They were the first one, because they are the ónly one. Who else should produce non-mediterreanean art? The Germans? They did (and at the same time as the Celts starting to produce art. And so are there more things to defend my point of view. Waiting for reaction....

	03-11-2002 22:50									#39
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan ??? Anyway, if there's a case for the Iroquois being a civ, then certainly the Celts, Sioux, Bantu, Polynesians, etc are all civs.

Go to google and search for the Celtic mummies of Teinshien China. Also if you have the National Geographic CD set you can find several articles they produced on the subject. Apparently several Chinese anthropoligists have been working on these finds since the 1970's but it only began to get press in the west during the 1990's.

I'll look around and post a link.

	03-11-2002 23:41									#40
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan ??? Anyway, if there's a case for the Iroquois being a civ, then certainly the Celts, Sioux, Bantu, Polynesians, etc are all civs.

Sure! That's why the Celts shouldn't be in the game and neither the Sioux, Bantu, Polynesians, etc....