12-10-2002 09:04									#1
	GL Creation: War with France Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To create anothe GL the most feasible option I see is that we harass the French into declaring war with us as to create a war with which we could both consolidate our borders, eat French babies, gain access to the other side of Anabanana and possibly generate another GL from which we can get Bach's or Adam's or ....

	12-10-2002 09:27									#2
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quote: To create anothe GL the most feasible option I see is that we harass the French into declaring war with us as to create a war with which we could both consolidate our borders, eat French babies, gain access to the other side of Anabanana and possibly generate another GL from which we can get Bach's or Adam's or ....

And a Hawk is born! I support this position but I fear we will have to be the ones declaring war.

	12-10-2002 09:57									#3
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A GL would be of GREAT importance to us, therein allowing us to advance way ahead of the other civs in terms of great wonders. Think of the potential there!

NZUPY great post.

Duddha, on a different note (but following the same lines), how long do you forecast until we can get navigation-->magnetism under our wing?

	12-10-2002 09:59									#4
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French babies....hmmm, we could buy a bunch on the black market and train them as spies!

	12-10-2002 10:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic A GL would be of GREAT importance to us, therein allowing us to advance way ahead of the other civs in terms of great wonders. Think of the potential there! NZUPY great post. Duddha, on a different note (but following the same lines), how long do you forecast until we can get navigation-->magnetism under our wing?

My report for 530 AD in this thread might give you an Idea of the answer that you want.

As for Wonders, Unless we get a GL at the proper time, you can forget building any in the Middle Ages.

E_T

	12-10-2002 10:15									#6
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quote: Duddha, on a different note (but following the same lines), how long do you forecast until we can get navigation-->magnetism under our wing?

Rightfully so, a CP candidate has adressed your question. The CP, the Economic Minister and the Foreign Minister have more control over how fast we acquire techs than the MoS. I will do my best to convince the Reddawg to raise the tech rate and convince the CP to build libraries.

Under my plans we will probably research Navigation after Democracy or Banking, depending on public opinion. So how ever long it takes to get to Democracy is about how long it will take to get Navigation.

	12-10-2002 17:55									#7
	Re: GL Creation: War with France Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by nz_upy To create anothe GL the most feasible option I see is that we harass the French into declaring war with us as to create a war with which we could both consolidate our borders, eat French babies, gain access to the other side of Anabanana and possibly generate another GL from which we can get Bach's or Adam's or ....

This glosses over the fact that our chances of getting a GL from a war with France are exceedingly small... so small that it is hardly a reason to justify such a campaign.... especially since the resources expent on such a campaign might just as well be used to build additional improvements in our cities and provide a far more guaranteed chance of augmenting ourselves than the exceedingly small chance of getting a GL you're hoping for...

	12-10-2002 18:04									#8
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quote: This glosses over the fact that our chances of getting a GL from a war with France are exceedingly small... so small that it is hardly a reason to justify such a campaign.... especially since the resources expent on such a campaign might just as well be used to build additional improvements in our cities and provide a far more guaranteed chance of augmenting ourselves than the exceedingly small chance of getting a GL you're hoping for...

And why would think that, Arnelos, charging a WC against one of their lowly warriors will surely do the trick, don't you agree?

	12-10-2002 18:22									#9
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quote: Originally posted by zeit And why would think that, Arnelos, charging a WC against one of their lowly warriors will surely do the trick, don't you agree?

zeit, you are obviously confusing a GL (Great Leader) with a GA (Golden Age). A GA would indeed start if one of our WCs defeated a French warrior (assuming they have any warriors, an unlikely prospect...). However, a GL can only be formed when an elite unit wins a battle and is amazingly lucky enough to produce one... especially since we are not a militaristic civ, the probability is exceedingly small. As if that did not make the chance low enough, all elite units go to veteran when they are upgraded... so any elite knights we have will become veteran cavalry.... which means we'd have to have a cavalry unit in the French war both promoted to elite and produce a GL in the same conflict.... an extremely unlikely prospect for being a non-militaristic civ.

	12-10-2002 18:42									#10
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We saw French warriors at the cultural borders of Rheims several turns, the last time being the beginning of the last turnchat. Let's just hope they don't complete a barracks and upgrade them by the time we attack.

	12-10-2002 18:55									#11
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oops, sorry Anelos.
just saw the Capital 'g' and france and thought this was about GA...

But why are the chances that slim?
we'll probably stick to knights by the time we have a war with france, we'll have the war in 20 turns or less, according the Aggie's plan. Of course this has to be approved by the public and be beneficial (the war), but we don't have any other options in site, so even if this reason alone doesn't justify the war, perhaps it gives us another excuse for the war, along with expanding the border and getting saltpeter, excess to the western shore and sparking a GA.

	12-10-2002 21:04									#12
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I'd prefer if this war was limited to a minimum. After Lyons and its neighbouring cities, there's not much we can take from France that's worth the spending.

	12-10-2002 21:26									#13
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quote: Originally posted by zeit oops, sorry Anelos. just saw the Capital 'g' and france and thought this was about GA... But why are the chances that slim? we'll probably stick to knights by the time we have a war with france, we'll have the war in 20 turns or less, according the Aggie's plan. Of course this has to be approved by the public and be beneficial (the war), but we don't have any other options in site, so even if this reason alone doesn't justify the war, perhaps it gives us another excuse for the war, along with expanding the border and getting saltpeter, excess to the western shore and sparking a GA.

I know what Aggie's argued about using knights in the war with France, but I'm still worried about the French getting gunpowder and then being able to have those annoying musketeers running all over the place... units which will make our knights fall by the droves (especially if said musketeers are fortified inside large cities).

So my argument is that if France (or anyone else) has gunpowder, it would likely be very unwise to attack with only knights. We would have to augment our knights with cannons at the very least, though by that point why not simply wait for military tradition and convert to cavalry?

	12-10-2002 21:27									#14
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Indeed, although there is the possibilty that even if we kick their ass, they won't be willing to have peace with us, it happened to me several times, so we would be drawn into longer period of fighting, which IMHO the goal would be to reach the western shore.

	12-10-2002 22:30									#15
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I am very, very much opposed to a war with France. This American War is the last one I condone for some time to come; provoking a war with France in order to get a GL is not acceptable to me, and anyone will have a hard time convincing me otherwise. Anyone remember that massive thread about this, and the Pax Apolytonia ?

	12-10-2002 22:33									#16
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I agree on not attacking muskets with knights. It could take upwards of to a dozen knights to guarantee victory in a large city. Not worth it IMHO. Also with going to republic, we can't resonably expect to start a war, unless quick civ elimination is expected, w/o at least a short period (which could be longer) or war weariness unhappiness.

	13-10-2002 08:20									#17
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Now hang on a moment. Most seem to be associating a war with France to a GA as well as a GL. Keep in mind that we had a poll recently on whether to get the GA now or later. I haven't seen the poll today, but las I looked the option to delay was winning. The consensus amongst the delay-voters seems to be that we end America, develop our nation for a time, and then maybe aim for a GA with a war eg against France.

Now although a war with France during this time of development (Republic) is not completely impossible, keep in mind that such a war, if it happens before we have developed our cities a bit, then this is effectively against what I see the majority's wishes are. In other words, we need a poll beofre we decide on this.

	13-10-2002 14:09									#18
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The most advantageous thing that we gain from a war with France is access to the western shore and a better chance at finding the remaining civs (apart from their babies) aswell as removing a potential thorn from our side. Although in saying that I agree that a war at this time would do us far more harm than good as we go through the birthing pains of a new republic. We must first ensure a solid base from which we can become less reliant on the foreign scum for our own economic security and scientific wellbeing. Let the DIA rule for a season until the mighty Hawks can lead our great nation to greatness.

	13-10-2002 14:56									#19
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In the context of our competition with Rome for number 1 of our continent, I believe that France's location and power play a key role in what we should be doing. In terms of land area, strategic resources, etc the French incorporate the bottleneck of our continent, acting as a natural buffer to a Roman spearhead. They COULD be useful in case of a future war with our neighbors on that half of the continent.
France has little more to offer than just land area and potential for oil resources to pop up later. For the time being, having the French around is not so bad. In the future though, they will have no choice but to see us trample through their cities!

	13-10-2002 16:08									#20
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I concur with Meshelic. We don't need to open the Pandora's Box that is Abananaba Minor. The Germans, English, Greek and Aztecs are enough trouble already and we don't need any more fronts with powerful AIs.

Let us not pull out the cork that is France and let the Roman demon loose!
Metaphors, GOOD! Me like.

	13-10-2002 22:08									#21
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I agree with MWIA, we are not yet ready for war, nor will we be before the end of the peace treaty. However after we have built up and before the french get gp we should launch this attack. Right now we have 9knights and 7 wcs. 5 of the wc 's will be upgraded this coming turnchat for a total of 14 Knights. 5 of those currently are committed to the Eastern Front. 9 knights could be enough to take rheims and there source of iron and cobined with longbowmen(upgraded from archers) could take all cities on the e coast and to the mountains, but I am not sure we could take over the whole nation. We should at least wait until we have 14 knights + longbowmen and some WC before we attack. However once the forces are in postion we tell them to get out when they cross our borders, I would like to get them to declare war if possible.
Aggie

	13-10-2002 22:43									#22
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Aggie- what about the possiblity that france does get gunpowder and musketeer before the peace treaty expires?