14-10-2002 01:12									#1
	Science spending Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

We have been talking about researching our own tech for quite some time now, but still our science spending is ZERO.

This is outrageous!doitnow!:


as the costs of buying techs get higher and higher, and since we get a fat bonus of commere from the Republic, and we are deep into the construction of marketplaces in the major cities, the time has come to divert some funds towards research.

And the case of "we don't have enough libraries" is absurd, because we don't need those libraries- we might have as well spend all of our commerce on entertainment before we have enough marketplaces. the libraries only boost the research, but the bulk of it must come from governmental funding.

Let us spend at least 10% of our income on science, for a start, and after we finish with printing press increase it even further!

[propaganda]
Say yes for Research Funding, Say yes for a brighter Apolytonia!
[propaganda]

	14-10-2002 01:29									#2
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We're currently researching with one scientist at Macross City, and we're researching at the minimum rate of one tech every 40 turns (IIRC we're roughly half through now). Raising the science rate to 10% won't get us Printing Press any faster. We'd have to raise the sci. slider to a lot more than that.
At this point when we have only one library (IIRC) and all the commerce that would go to science (except in the single city that has a library) produces one beaker per commerce it's not really worth it to spend on science. When we have more libraries I'd support raising the sci. slider, but not now when it won't benefit us at all.

	14-10-2002 01:29									#3
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Bah!

Unless we can research something in say 10-15 turns, it would be pointless to have the sci rate any higher then zero (as long as we have a specialist be a scientist). The benifits of the extra income are to important in till we have inproved our Infrastructure and Military.

	14-10-2002 01:30									#4
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I don't have the game open right now, but I don't think 10% would do much; certainly not more than the scientist we are currently using somewhere. We'd have to raise it to 50% or more to see much effect, I think.

And just because we can start heavy research without libraries doesn't mean we should. As we have been saying all along, our cities are underdeveloped. They aren't even using some of the tech we have right now. At this point, I think it would be better to keep funneling commerce into the treasury, so that we can rush some of the improvements that are still lacking. Once we have basic structures like marketplaces, libraries, and cathedrals, I bet we'll be able to pump it up to even higher than 50%. That'll be some pretty fast research; and our cities will be able to make use of that research.

Sure, it's annoying to fall behind; but I don't see how it would benefit us to catch up. The only tech available to us that we could make much use of is gunpowder, and as long as we can get to printing press before everyone else, that shouldn't be a problem.

	14-10-2002 04:30									#5
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If you vote for me as Minister of Science,
I could perhaps gain influence to make our country
become the main technological centre in this world.

Only through extensive buildup in trade, and new culture/research projects, we can accomplish this. Then we can raise the science spending a bit.

	14-10-2002 04:43									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Thank you Zeit. You see, it's not that Science is set at 0% as opposed to 10%. If it were to be switched it wouldn't improve science output. The problem is the self-defeating arguement: It's not worth raising the science spending until we have more libraries, and it's not worth building more libraries because science spending isn't high enough to be worthwhile.

I'm fighting a battle as MoS to make this arguement irrelvant. It's going to be a long and hard fight for future ministers, but it has to be done.

	14-10-2002 04:45									#7
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Until we are structured better and have the population and improvements to do so, we won't need to raise the science spending. Having a specialist or two work on research is way more economical for us at the time being.

	14-10-2002 05:07									#8
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I am against any research untill at least 1000ad.

We can probably reseach stuff in 9 or 10 turns if we put all our budget into it but we still need the money for other things atm. Also any techs we could research would be untradeable only when we can trade them away should we research them.

	14-10-2002 05:21									#9
	What we could expect with different Sci Rates Support Apolyton

From 580 AD save
If we raise our science rate, here's the results:

20% or less: No Change
30%: 17 Turns (85 beakers/turn), Income: 88
40%: 13 Turns (111 Beakers/turn), Income: 64
50%: 10 Turns (152 B/t), Income: 25
60%: 9 Turns (173 B/t), Income: 7
70%: 8 Turns (199 B/t), Income: -17
80%: 7 Turns (229 B/t), Income: -45
90%: 6 Turns (259 B/t), Income: -72
100%: 5 Turns (284 B/t), Income: -95

E_T

	14-10-2002 05:25									#10
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Good chart ET, I think we all will agree that the wisest thing to do for science is to leave it be for now, and only when we have structured our economy and industry to be more productive should we raise the science rate.

	14-10-2002 07:44									#11
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Thud... I argue that the libraries should come before the science rate in this case...

So my argument is that we should use the current abundance of monetary income to help with those heavily needed libraries... then up the science rate as a consequence of the libraries augmenting its impact.

This solves the chicken & egg argument, as money -> libraries -> science

Pretty simple

The battleground, therefore, is the City Planner's area... and our obvious problem (and obvious advantage on the flipside) is that science is textbook "public good", one which is good for everyone to have, but for whom no-one (meaning no regional governor) is advantaged by providing. Regional governors are going to want to build cathedrals and aqueducts and that sort of thing before they'll want to build libraries because libraries (other than the culture) don't do much for city development. The CP, however, has something of a more empire-wide perspective on development priorities and is more likely to overrule regional governors to build libraries sooner...

Just some thoughts...

	14-10-2002 08:29									#12
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quote: Unless we can research something in say 10-15 turns, it would be pointless to have the sci rate any higher then zero (as long as we have a specialist be a scientist). The benifits of the extra income are to important in till we have inproved our Infrastructure and Military.

agreed

quote: Thank you Zeit. You see, it's not that Science is set at 0% as opposed to 10%. If it were to be switched it wouldn't improve science output. The problem is the self-defeating arguement: It's not worth raising the science spending until we have more libraries, and it's not worth building more libraries because science spending isn't high enough to be worthwhile.

agreed

quote: If you vote for me as Minister of Science, I could perhaps gain influence to make our country become the main technological centre in this world.

propoganda

quote: Only through extensive buildup in trade, and new culture/research projects, we can accomplish this. Then we can raise the science spending a bit.

Foolish Culture Club ideas

	14-10-2002 10:49									#13
	Got spare money?

Well said, Arnelos. Libraries are valuable not just for their science benefits, but don't forget the +3 Culture also. We can definitely aim for Libraries first.

I would hope that as a Republic our opportunities for science will expand rapidly, and soon enough it will be worth raising the rate. However, there could be a case for raising the rate even sooner. Perhaps this could be the first poll of the new Science Minister...?

	14-10-2002 15:57									#14
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I'd support more research. Hopefully, we can take advantage of our GA to build some libraries (and universities), giving us some research capacity. (At 320%, we can get 88 gpt and a tech every 17 turns. Hopefully, libraries will increase that.)

BTW-- has anyone noticed that we're actually leading the known civs in culture (as of 570 AD)?

	14-10-2002 19:47									#15
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Thats because we have the most cities. Try dividing our total culture by the number of cities and that tells a different story. (Im not sure what, I'll get back on that one)

	14-10-2002 20:12									#16
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My recommendation:

We remain on our present course until Printing Press is discovered. We have a plan in motion to aquire Banking. Once we have learned Printing Press, we start on Democracy and increase Science Funding at that time.

--Togas

	15-10-2002 01:20									#17
	probably somewhat OT Enter the AD-FREE zone

OK here are the results, unfortunatly less accurate than I had hoped.

The next culturally advanced civ is England.

They have about 7/8ths of our culture, from what I measured on the historograph thing.

They have 13 cities, we have 37 cities.

If we used 1/8th of our culture as 1 culture point, we have 0.22 culture/city, and they have 0.54 culture/city.

(Just thought I'd let you know...)

	15-10-2002 03:14									#18
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-Well, i know i exaggerated and my data weren't accurate enough, i also noticed the fact that another 10% or 20% won't help us now, on that i can agree, sorry for the seemingly overconfidence...
as Thud said, i think the best we can do is to increase the funding as soon as we finsh with printing press. By the time we finish it, the costs of researching the techs will be small compared to the growing cost of buying the techs, and tech acquisition war good for the time being, but we'd face some tougher and better equiped rivals, with muskets and large cities, and no hope in site for Military tradition in the next 20 turns, am i right?

I totally agree with Thud, we don't need the libraries to make research profitable, and i hope some cost/profit calculations can prove this, and i'll try to work something out.

	15-10-2002 22:00									#19
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Based on these stats, stay with the current 0% research until Printing Press discovered.

Then stop the turn when this happens so we can compare ratios.

With regard to building of libaries & science rate:

The northern portion of the Persian annexation needs culture buildings as does the area around Aztec occuplied america.

For the other cities, Market Places takes precedence. With the increased revenue from them everywhere, we would be able to afford a higher percentage of our income going to science.

	15-10-2002 22:16									#20
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Please review the City Council thread about a very relevant discussion.

What is most important for science, a few libraries over a few cathedrals, or a larger population?

The cathedrals and markets make us able to have a larger population, thus generating more money, more science, etc.

Courthouses reduce corruption for both shields and money. Making construction faster, and gaining more potential for science and cash. More cash means more purchasing of structures and units.

Acuaducts allow us to go from size 6 to size 12. If corruption is not rampent, the increase in pop does more than a 50% bonus.

In other words, we are looking at the current situation, and not ignoring the future, but planning a foundation so that the future will be possible and glorious.

	15-10-2002 22:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Duddha Foolish Culture Club ideas

Hi duddha, I disagree.

I can see you are carrying your hatchet in a high positure.
Well, it looks like my campaign is virtually over,
so why don't we bury the hatchet for now?

	16-10-2002 03:55									#22
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Marketplaces are almost as important as libraries in science terms. They increase our profits, alowing us to give more spending to research. They also make more people happy when there are more than 2 luxeries, and this frees up entertainers to be scientists or work the land, increasing production and trace.

IMO, we should build marketplaces before libraries because the effect would be immediate, as where with libraries, we would need to increase the science rate for them to take effect.