15-10-2002 12:46									#1
	City Council: Markets, Libraries and Cathedrals Got spare money?

As a proud member of the City Council I believe it is high time that we formulate the use of marketplaces, libraries and cathedrals. We need to analyze their effects and then decide upon a set of rules that will determine which of those three improvements should be build first, where and why.

	15-10-2002 13:00									#2
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I'd like to begin this discussion by characterizing these city improvements:

Cathedral culture and order.
Cathedrals produce 3 culture points per turn, as well as 6 content faces. Thanks to the fact that our civilization is religious, Cathedrals only cost 80 shields (instead of 160 shields). This makes Cathedrals the cheapest of all three city improvements, since Libraries and Marketplaces cost 100 shields each.
Cathedrals cost 20 shields less to build or 80 gold less to rush.

Library: culture and science.
Libraries increase the science rate in their cities by 50% and produce 3 culture points per turn. With the rapid increase in the cost of acquiring techs, libraries may soon become a must-have in every large city.

Marketplace: economy and order.
Marketplaces increase the economic output in their cities by 50% and produce happy faces. The 50% increase can help us increase our income so that we can rush the other buildings faster.
Furthermore, the happy faces that they produce help in getting the city to celebrate 'We Love the President Day'. Among the effects of WLTPD are a decrease in corruption (ONLY corruption in gold, not waste in shields) in the same way that a 2nd courthouse would work. Basically, a marketplace can turn even an average city into an economic powerhouse.

My own recommendations:
Build Cathedrals in the border cities. They are cheap, they help keep the city out of disorder and at this point will also help achieving WLTPD (which halves the chance that the city will culture-flip to an AI civ). Furthermore, they create culture which will help us push our borders forward, decrease the chances that their city will culture-flip and increase the chances that nearby AI cities will flip to us.
Marketplaces should go in the cities that produce the most commerce. The economic bonus will help increase our income and allow us to rush improvements more often. After a Marketplace is built in a city it should build a library as well.
I recommend that Marketplaces be built before Libraries because if we build Libraries first we'll have Libraries faster, whereas if we build Marketplaces first and then Libraries we'd have both faster than we would have had if we build Libraries first and then Marketplaces.

Comments are appreciated!

	15-10-2002 13:31									#3
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quote: My own recommendations: Build Cathedrals in the border cities. They are cheap, they help keep the city out of disorder and at this point will also help achieving WLTPD (which halves the chance that the city will culture-flip to an AI civ). Furthermore, they create culture which will help us push our borders forward, decrease the chances that their city will culture-flip and increase the chances that nearby AI cities will flip to us. Marketplaces should go in the cities that produce the most commerce. The economic bonus will help increase our income and allow us to rush improvements more often. After a Marketplace is built in a city it should build a library as well. I recommend that Marketplaces be built before Libraries because if we build Libraries first we'll have Libraries faster, whereas if we build Marketplaces first and then Libraries we'd have both faster than we would have had if we build Libraries first and then Marketplaces. Comments are appreciated!

Hmmm... good arguments Shiber. I, however (and naturally), have a difference of opinon.

Money runs the world. Its that simple. The most successful civ has the most money. You can do so much more with money then anything else. You can buy improvements. You can upgrade units. You can buy techs. You can even buy happiness (through the Lux slider). Marketplaces should be the first to be built, unless it is a border city in danger of flipping (ie: Arbela and Chiquita) or hoping to flip another city (ie: Arbela, Taursa, Aztec Resistance Camp). In these cities, the priority should be culture over production, corruption and commerce. Cathedral then Library due to Cath being cheaper.

After Marketplace I would say that a Cathedral would be more helpful on a city level, but that a Library would be more helpful on a empire level and should thusly be built next.

	15-10-2002 13:56									#4
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I agree that marketplaces should come first unless its a border city but I disagree that we should make libraries the bottom priority. Libraries will become practically essential in just a few turnchats. We need to start researching things ourselves if we want to conserve our money for improvements and upgrades.

[propaganda]
We must invest in our future!
[/propaganda]

	15-10-2002 14:15									#5
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I'd vote for Marketplaces, Cathedrals and Libraries, in that order, for every city with at most 50% corruption. Reason:

Marketplaces provide an economical and happiness boost and therefor secure the wealth and growth of our empire. If we want to spend more money on science, we need to make sure we get more. More citizens make more money, so besides the 50% economic bonus the increased happiness by the marketplaces is very welcome.

Yet more citizens we can make only with Cathedrals. They cost us as much as a Library (we're religious), but provide a much higher benefit. Since we have the Sistine Chapel, each city with a cathedral will have 8 content citizens (1 basic, 1 temple, 6 cathedral) and it needs only 3 luxuries (with marketplaces) to let this city grow to size 12, which is the actual limit. We have those luxuries.

Now we have the citizens and, hopefully, built roads on every tile worked on, in order to get commerce. Now let's increase the science spendings by building Libraries. Soon after, we'll be able to build Universities and finally Banks.

Ah, and one more note: It may be worth to consider to build a Courthouse first, especially in cities with more than about 25% corruption.

	15-10-2002 14:32									#6
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With a marketplace and 4 luxuries we can safely reach 12 population. The marketplace will create 6 happy faces. We get one free content citizen in every city and another one from a temple, so a size 12 city with a marketplace and access to 4 luxuries would have 6 happy citizens, 2 content and 4 unhappy. There's no extra need for a cathedral in such a city until we can build hospitals.
I don't see why we should build both a marketplace and a cathedral in a city that doesn't have a library yet.

	15-10-2002 14:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber We need to start researching things ourselves if we want to conserve our money for improvements and upgrades. [propaganda] We must invest in our future! [/propaganda]

Buying is cheaper than researching ourselves until we have a lot of Libraries and a few Universities.

It does not change. It as true this time as the last 50 times I have said it.

As Sir Ralph has said, marketplaces are the better benefit, before libraries. More cash to buy tech or rush other things.

Cathedral or Library in the 2 and 3 position are a case by case decision.

	15-10-2002 15:00									#8
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You've misunderstood me. I'm also saying that marketplaces are a top priority (except for in border cities where culture is more important), but I also think that we should build libraries (in cities that already have marketplaces) and universities (in cities that already have banks).

	15-10-2002 15:07									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I agree that marketplaces should come first unless its a border city but I disagree that we should make libraries the bottom priority. Libraries will become practically essential in just a few turnchats. We need to start researching things ourselves if we want to conserve our money for improvements and upgrades

We are in agreement on the Library issue.

When I wrote "I would say that a Cathedral would be more helpful on a city level, but that a Library would be more helpful on a empire level and should thusly be built next." this meant that a cathedral was better for the individual city, but the library was better for the empire and should be built first.

	15-10-2002 16:05									#10
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal When I wrote "I would say that a Cathedral would be more helpful on a city level, but that a Library would be more helpful on a empire level and should thusly be built next." this meant that a cathedral was better for the individual city, but the library was better for the empire and should be built first.

Oh. We agree then.

	15-10-2002 16:41									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Oh. We agree then.

Yikes!

	15-10-2002 17:02									#12
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I'm as shocked as you are!!

	15-10-2002 17:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber With a marketplace and 4 luxuries we can safely reach 12 population. The marketplace will create 6 happy faces. We get one free content citizen in every city and another one from a temple, so a size 12 city with a marketplace and access to 4 luxuries would have 6 happy citizens, 2 content and 4 unhappy. There's no extra need for a cathedral in such a city until we can build hospitals.

Your math is flawed. A luxury makes a content citizen happy. It doesn't make an unhappy citizen happy. If there are no content citizens, but still luxuries left, you need 2 luxuries to make an unhappy citizen happy (1 to make him content, and 1 happy). Your above example leads to

- with the temple: 2 content citizens, and 10 unhappy
- after applying 2 (of 6) happy faces: 2 happy citizens and 10 unhappy. No more content citizens here.
- after applying the remaining 4 happy faces: 4 happy citizens and 8 unhappy.

This city will revolt.

	15-10-2002 17:42									#14
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I had no idea happy faces don't affect unhappy citizens. Alright, you got me convinced.

	15-10-2002 17:49									#15
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Oh, and again about libraries: Cathedrals are a lot better and cost the same. People, we have the Sistine chapel, and our cathedrals have double happiness effect! Lets assume a size 8 city (the maximum with marketplace and 4 luxuries), and let it produce 20 gold. Let's assume 20% corruption, that makes 16 gold. With 50% science (I don't know our current rate), that makes 8 beakers, with a library 12. Now let's assume, we have no library, but a cathedral and the city is size 12. With the same settings, its output will be about 30 gold, minus 20% is 24 gold, with 50% science 12 beakers.

See it? The cathedral improved our science as well as the library would. Our cities grow fast, we have the Pyramids. Plus the cathedral gives more production (shields). Plus, the increased commerce (market + more citizens) with constant unit upkeep makes it possible to raise the science slider even more, so a marketplace + a cathedral are indeed better than a library.

1 - Marketplace
2 - Cathedral
3 - Library

	15-10-2002 19:01									#16
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Must agree with Sir Ralph.

Although maybe Cathedrals in border cities first.

	15-10-2002 19:39									#17
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Like Sir Ralph said, Courthouses. Even if our the palaces have not been placed yet. With our empire sprawling arcoss 1/4 of the known world, corruption will be the endemic scourge of our society. Tackle corruption first, then improvements. Markets in core cities, libraries in inner ring, cathedrals in outer ring.

	15-10-2002 20:55									#18
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Don't forget, that more citizens also build improvements quicker. Therefor it might me a good idea, first to boost our core to size 12 with temples, marketplaces and cathedrals, and then build libraries, universities and banks much quicker.

	15-10-2002 21:04									#19
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Courthouses & acuaducts. These must be considered in this discussion. At work, not much time to elaborate, but trying to seperate only these three without any specifics will not work.

	15-10-2002 21:38									#20
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New York has a temple and access to five luxuries. There are four citizens, out of which three are happy and the remaining citizen is content.
Maybe I'm just stupid but I simply don't get it.

	15-10-2002 22:08									#21
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quote: New York has a temple and access to five luxuries. There are four citizens, out of which three are happy and the remaining citizen is content. Maybe I'm just stupid but I simply don't get it.

NY has no marketplace, right?

Basic NY: 1 content, 3 unhappy
Temple: 2 content, 2 unhappy
1st luxury: 1 happy, 1 content, 2 unhappy
2nd luxury: 2 happy, 2 unhappy
3rd luxury: 2 happy, 1 content, 1 unhappy (no more content citizens to make happy)
4th luxury: 3 happy, 1 unhappy
5th luxury: 3 happy, 1 content

It's all like it should be .

Btw: GodKing is right about Aqueducts. Right after Cathedrals, or cities won't grow.

	16-10-2002 09:56									#22
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Actually I think most (or atleast alot) of our cities (not on Uber Island) have a river bordering them and don't require an aqueduct.

	16-10-2002 12:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Actually I think most (or atleast alot) of our cities (not on Uber Island) have a river bordering them and don't require an aqueduct.

Great!

However there is a small but in here.
As our cities grow are we able to keep the citizen happy?
With cathedrals I think we are able to keep them happy but who knows...

	16-10-2002 13:22									#24
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Torkkeli: Because we have the Sistine chapel, our cathedrals grant city growth until size 12, given we have 4 luxuries (3 with marketplace). We have those luxuries, and don't even need to trade for them. We also don't need to build Colosseums.

	16-10-2002 16:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Torkkeli: Because we have the Sistine chapel, our cathedrals grant city growth until size 12, given we have 4 luxuries (3 with marketplace). We have those luxuries, and don't even need to trade for them. We also don't need to build Colosseums.

Ok this is good.

Now why not Colosseums? They give a lot of culture IIRC.

	16-10-2002 17:42									#26
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I'll take a shot at it:

1) Marketplace - With our science rate still at 0%, we need all the lytons we can get.

2) Cathedral - With the Sistine, they are the sweetest building in the game. Moves up to 1st for border or captured cities.

3) Gets tricky now:

a) If city will require an aquaduct, and will be finished the growth to 7 by the time the aquaduct is finished - build it.

b) If city is suffering from corruption (50%+), build courthouse.

c) If neither a) or b) apply, build library.

4) Even trickier. From this point on, keep checking the 3a) and 3b) conditions until those buildings are built.

a) same as 3a)

b) same as 3b)

c) If neither a) or b) apply, build colosseum.

Repeat 4) until applicable buildings are built.

At any time, a Harbour may interrupt this order (from 3c onward), as deemed necessary for either trade or growth concerns.

	16-10-2002 18:03									#27
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Good work. I might not agree with it totally, but having a plan like this, where certian conditions are to be met would be an excelent way to set up CP orders.

	16-10-2002 20:11									#28
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Sir Ralph, I figured happy faces turn unhappy citizens into content and not just content citizens into happy citizens but I wanted to make sure. Thanks!

	17-10-2002 11:40									#29
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To correct myself:

Colosseums give only 2 culture. (I wonder why I had the impression they give 4 culture... )
So dejons plan looks very good.

	17-10-2002 12:19									#30
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DP