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Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:27 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Another reason why the UN is a joke... Increase Your PM Length

Source:

Hollywood loves using the “it takes a thief to catch a thief” plot in its movies. But even the most creative scriptwriter couldn’t top the real-life plot twist the U.N. Commission on Human Rights will have concocted when Libya becomes its chairman.

That’s right -- Libya. One of the world’s worst abusers of human rights will head what is supposed to be the world’s most prestigious international forum for promoting those rights.

How did this happen? Chairmanship of the 53-member Commission rotates between geographic regions every year. The chairmanship for the term beginning in March 2003 belongs to Africa, whose nations are set to nominate Libya.

Ruled by the notorious dictator Muammar Qadhafi, Libya has long supported international terrorism. The U.S. State Department lists it as a state sponsor of terrorism. For years, it harbored the two individuals responsible for bombing Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, and it still refuses to accept responsibility or pay compensation. Worse, says Under Secretary of State John Bolton, Libya is trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

Its human-rights record is awful. According to the State Department’s 2001 “Country Reports on Human Rights Practices,” the Libyan government: (1) relies on its courts to suppress domestic opposition; (2) uses torture to interrogate and punish prisoners; (3) arrests and detains its citizens arbitrarily and often holds prisoners incommunicado for years; and (4) refuses prisoners the right to a fair public trial. In addition, the report says, Libya “restricts freedom of speech, press, assembly, association and religion.”

As if all this wasn’t enough, Libya also stands accused of trafficking in human slavery. This is the country other members of the U.N. Commission believe can best serve as spokesman for their efforts to promote human rights?

But for certain U.N. member nations, three things compensate for Libya’s painfully deficient human-rights record. The first is that it’s located in the correct geographic region. The second is the opportunity it gives them to thump free nations (particularly the United States) that often criticize developing countries for their human-rights records. The third is the determination of some nations to undermine the goals of the Commission on Human Rights and conceal their abuses.

What countries could see value in undermining human rights? Commission members such as China, Cuba, Sudan, Syria and Zimbabwe spring to mind. No doubt Libya can count on their eager support in quashing investigations into true human-rights abuses, instead focusing the Commission’s resources on issues like the death penalty in the United States -- a cause sure to elicit support from human-rights groups while leaving the far worse records of repressive governments carefully cloaked.

These countries have become quite effective at pursuing this goal in recent years. For instance, China has used its membership on the Commission to defeat resolutions criticizing its human-rights record, and Cuba used its influence to weaken criticism of its record. Resolutions condemning Iran and Zimbabwe also failed to elicit enough support to pass this past year, according to Human Rights Watch.

This is the same Commission, incidentally, that refused to re-elect the United States in 2001 in a fit of spite over President Bush’s opposition to such cherished U.N. icons as the International Criminal Court and the Kyoto Protocol on global warming. At the same time the Commission kicked out the United States, it agreed to accept a new member: Sudan, a nation whose government has spent the last few years bombing civilians, tolerating slavery and supporting international terrorism.

After substantial lobbying, U.S. diplomats at the United Nations succeeded in getting America back on the Commission -- just in time, it seems, to enjoy the benefits of Libyan leadership. No doubt the new chairman and Libya’s allies will spend much of their time making it difficult for the United States to advance the cause of human rights.

Image is everything to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. The body has no real authority other than its moral stature in naming and shaming governments that violate human rights and abuse their citizens. The past unwillingness of the Commission to name and shame members for human-rights abuses, while doggedly carping at free nations for their relatively minor offenses, has eroded its credibility. Naming Libya its chair sweeps away the Commission’s last remnants of respectability and lends support to the belief that the United Nations is impeding human rights rather than enforcing them.

----------------------------------------

Sorry to have to post and run but I won't be able to stick around for the spam. First the Sudan and now Libya. I guess they showed us who is boss.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:32
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Good. ANother thing to discredit the UN.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:32
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Re: Another reason why the UN is a joke... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Its human-rights record is awful. According to the State Department’s 2001 “Country Reports on Human Rights Practices,” the Libyan government: (1) relies on its courts to suppress domestic opposition; (2) uses torture to interrogate and punish prisoners; (3) arrests and detains its citizens arbitrarily and often holds prisoners incommunicado for years; and (4) refuses prisoners the right to a fair public trial. In addition, the report says, Libya “restricts freedom of speech, press, assembly, association and religion.”


sounds familiar...

(1) USA 2000 presidential election theft
(2) - (4) America's detainees in the "War on Terror."

Good thing they kicked us off the Commission!

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:37 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Well I must have made a good point if you have to bring up the "theft" thing again. I guess we could count the votes one more time...

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:40
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You can't be serious, Boris. No one is stupid enough to equate Libya's actions with America's...

I hope.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
Well I must have made a good point if you have to bring up the "theft" thing again. I guess we could count the votes one more time...


Hey, it's not my fault that the Bush Administration seems to have a lot in common with Quadaffi's regime and that stings you so much. Talk to them.

monkspider is offline monkspider
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Aug 2001
time: 23:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:42
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It's about time we got a country who will take care of buisness up there.
I have heard some of Libya's plans for dealing with human rights violating countries, and let's just say, I wouldn't want to be Yemen right now.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
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Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You can't be serious, Boris. No one is stupid enough to equate Libya's actions with America's...

I hope.


You have a good point. Libya hasn't gone about invading sovereign nations over the past few years, true.

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
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Jul 2000
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:43 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
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Anyway, I have to get off of this computer because I am getting a headache. But I am voting for Iran next time around just to be fair.

monkspider is offline monkspider
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You have a good point. Libya hasn't gone about invading sovereign nations over the past few years, true.


Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
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Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:46
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Well, Poly's always good for one thing. If you ever begin to have faith in the intelligence of your fellow humans, a quick trip here will snap you back to reality. Thanks for the wake up call, Boris and monkspider. I needed it.

monkspider is offline monkspider
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:51
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America has been responsible for many times more deaths of innocents than Libya in the past thirty years. Guatemala, Nicarauga, El Salvador, Vietnam, Laos, East Timor, etc etc etc.
I doubt there has been nary a country in history that has violated human rights so frequently.

Comparing measily Libya to America was a completely unfair on our part Drake. Libya might be more of a match in terms of sheer human rights violations to, oh, let's say, the Ukraine.

monkspider is offline monkspider
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:53
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Ugh, that Nyquil is kicking in. I won't be able to post any more this evening. Goooooodd night Poly!

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
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Oct 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:54
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Oh, jesus.

A typical line of bullshit propaganda. The only thing I haven't heard before is the East Timor thing. How exactly was evil America responsible for that? I'm sure you have some lame ass conspiracy theory about that, so let's hear it...

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 06:57
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Drake, come one. If you're not able to see nashing of teeth over Libya assuming a rotating position on the UN commission is a just a weeee bit hypocritical coming from the United States, we can't help you.

I would rather live in the U.S. than in Libya, absolutely. I would rather live in the U.S. than any country, as it's my home. By I don't think the American government's hands are clean concerning human rights, and until we end the death penalty, end the deprevation of rights of political detainees and end the institutionalized discrimination in this country, our words in this matter come across as a little hollow.

Not to mention this is just more UN-bashing.

monkspider is offline monkspider
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:00
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Drake, how are any of the incidents I described "bullshit progaganda" unless "bullshit propaganda" is expanded to include "unpleasent deaths that we try to hide under the carpet".
Perhaps the deaths of non-Americans are of little consequence to you, but that doesn't make them "bullshit". In fact it's quite absurd and heartless to try to declare them so.

A few million here, a few million there, no country is even in the same league as the United States in terms of violating human rights and crushing Democracy.
I know that kind of thinking go against the offical state line quite dramatically, but one thing that I will praise my country for is for allowing relative freedom of information. If you desire to seek out the truth it can be found, albeit rather difficultly in some cases.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:05
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No one's hands are clean when it comes to human rights, Boris. However, only an idiot would claim that America is being hypocritical for opposing Libyan chairmanship of the UNCHR.

Letting Libya head up a human rights commision is a ****ing joke and anyone who really cares about human rights should be pissed off about this. While people like you are *****ing about America's occasional slip up, countries like China are systematically raping their citizens human rights and using countries like Libya as a shield from international condemnation. You're really standing up for the good guys here, aren't you?

Goingonit is offline Goingonit
Warlord
Toronto, Canada - AECCP member
Apr 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:06
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Boris, the United States has as sullied a record as any 1st-world country, but look what you're saying here. Get some perspective. This is Libya, we're talking about! Qadaffi shoots down airliners for shits and giggles! If it were in the US' position at the moment, believe me, you'd have bigger things to worry about than racial discrimination in universities.

EDIT: I just realized I made nearly the same post as Drake.

Monkspider, not in the same league? Once again, look at what you're talking about. If you posted that in China, they'd shoot you. Iraq gases its ethnic minorities. It's fine to decry America's failings, but please, realize that there are far worse things going on.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:08
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Decided not to answer my East Timor question, eh monkspider?

As for the other ones, they were all unfortunate results of the Cold War. I'm not proud of them and wish they hadn't happened, but I also don't think that the U.S. set out to violate human rights. Intent matters to me, but it doesn't to other people. Maybe you don't care about intent; I don't really know. At any rate, nothing good can come from a discussion of those conflicts. I've done it before and it never solves anything.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
While people like you are *****ing about America's occasional slip up, countries like China are systematically raping their citizens human rights and using countries like Libya as a shield from international condemnation. You're really standing up for the good guys here, aren't you?


Wait. YOU are whitewashing America's actions, and you expect ME to feel guilty for pointing out the plank in America's eye. Please. "Slip ups" indeed. Oops! We just formented a coup! Oops! We're propping up a murdering dictator! Oops! We're subverting democracy abroad!

I'm not defending Libya's record. But how would you propose, given the UN charter and rules, Libya be stopped from assuming this position?

Standing up for the good guys...there aren't any good guys, that's the point. We're not in a Western here. Reality check please?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:12
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If you really don't think that there are good and bad guys in the world, then I weep for you. You won the lottery at birth and can't even appreciate it...

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit
If it were in the US' position at the moment, believe me, you'd have bigger things to worry about than racial discrimination in universities.


Hmmm, I don't think that was anything I brought up. My points were a bit more important, I believe.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
If you really don't think that there are good and bad guys in the world, then I weep for you. You won the lottery at birth and can't even appreciate it...


What does the first sentence have to do with the second?

I didn't say there were no good guys or bad guys in the world. I said that, in this instance, we're not the guys in the white hat.

And I believe I specifically addressed the latter sentence, as irrelevant as it is. Unless you're making that tired old cunard argument that if you make a criticism of the U.S. actions then you're a commie traitor who should leave?

Goingonit is offline Goingonit
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm not defending Libya's record. But how would you propose, given the UN charter and rules, Libya be stopped from assuming this position?


And what is so great about the UN charter that we have to operate within it?

I think that the argument being made implicitly is that the UN is deeply flawed, precisely because it allows countries like Libya to hold such positions.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit


And what is so great about the UN charter that we have to operate within it?

I think that the argument being made implicitly is that the UN is deeply flawed, precisely because it allows countries like Libya to hold such positions.


I wouldn't assert the UN is perfect, but I think its benefits to the world have far outweighed the drawbacks. I think it is PRECISELY because Libya is becoming head of the commission that the presence of nations like the U.S. and Europe are vital. The U.S. just needs to stop its sanctimonious bullying of other nations and whining about not getting its way 100% of the time. It is precisely such behavior that led to our humiliating loss of our seat on the HR Commission in the first place.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
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Oct 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:22
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quote:
I didn't say there were no good guys or bad guys in the world. I said that, in this instance, we're not the guys in the white hat.


Ohh, how could I possibly interpret this statement:

quote:
Standing up for the good guys...there aren't any good guys, that's the point.


as you saying that there are no good guys.

Goingonit is offline Goingonit
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Toronto, Canada - AECCP member
Apr 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Hmmm, I don't think that was anything I brought up. My points were a bit more important, I believe.


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood institutionalized racial discrimination.

But the point I was trying to make is that the magnitude and visibility of American human rights failings are exacerbated by its large and visible position in the world.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
I didn't say there were no good guys or bad guys in the world. I said that, in this instance, we're not the guys in the white hat.


Ohh, how could I possibly interpret this statement:

quote:
Standing up for the good guys...there aren't any good guys, that's the point.


as you saying that there are no good guys.


Because you're taking it out of the context of the argument, maybe?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
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  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:23
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quote:
I wouldn't assert the UN is perfect, but I think its benefits to the world have far outweighed the drawbacks.


With that logic, you should support the United States. The benefits of a strong America far outweigh the drawbacks.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
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Aug 2001
time: 00:23
  Old Post 16-10-2002 07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood institutionalized racial discrimination.

But the point I was trying to make is that the magnitude and visibility of American human rights failings are exacerbated by its large and visible position in the world.


I don't recall using the word 'racial.'

American human rights failings are real. And extends far beyond the scope of what I mentioned when one considers US actions abroad. Our propping up of Pinochet is just one small example of an international pattern that is a BIG part of our problems with anti-Americanism in the first place.

I would LOVE for America to live up the highschool textbook image of being perfect. But until that myth becomes a reality, I am going to speak out about what I think is wrong and why it should change.

 
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