10-11-1999 23:35									#61
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Wes,

After you get the files from Nordicus can you send them out to the rest of us on the List? I'd like to check this out also.

Don

	11-11-1999 13:17									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hey, Simpson.

*blush* Thanks.
Yeah, the more I look, the more it appears as though this was thrown together--I mean it, just slammed in there, the boss yelling: "C'mon! Hurry-hurry-hurry! Two weeks on this game is too much! No overtime for you people! C'mon, we're over-budget!" (Crack goes the whip...)

Okay, well not that bad, but yes, sloppy.
(I didn't know I had proved you wrong. I'll have look back and see that part )


Wes, Don:
I just sent you guys the *ahem* squeaky clean string files, but I didn't see the requests here. I thought I sent the others already? Oh well, I'll ship em out again.

Well, off to look something up and then remake my map. The poor thing I'm going one size up, 198 X 396, to ensure a proportional Asia-Pacific relationship (India was too thin in the one that just got erased). So, this will take some time--if I don't post or email you guys for a couple days, this is why.
Anyway, I shall send those files (I'll also add something for the AI Peace Treaty/Alliance continuing boggle...son of a...).

Later.

N.

	12-11-1999 07:57									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey all,
i remember reading on one of AI threads
about exponential growth of the civilizations, and how that makes it harder for low end civs to compete in the end, and i was wondering if someone could change gameplay to be little more linear.
I imagine that it can be done with some kind
of limit of cities per goverment, i.e.
later goverments can support more cities, and if they go over the limit there is a chance with each city limit +1% for that city to revolt and let's say +.1% for all extra cities to revolt (change to barbarians), with this numbers being tweaked...
This way people/ai will have to choose better locations for cities and if they have extra cities they will have to keep everyone in them happy, which i would imagine limit (peaceful?) goverments like democracy that don't like military units out of cities to be less agressive (they should be allowed most cities tho) and aggressive war-goverments will have to deal with less cities.
Also penalty for changing goverment could be little harsher, so people/ai should not like
spies/diplomats on their territory and woudn't want anarchy (perhaps make it possible to support only 15 cities under it, so every time revolution happens every turn you will see your cities break of), but at the same time it should be harder to revolt stable/happy goverments, so people will have to pay attention to their infrastructure.

Just some random thoughts, no time to play
with scripting.
Tima

	12-11-1999 20:58									#64
	Support Apolyton

Tima:

Hey. Ah! Numbers! No!
Actually Wes is the number guy, but a couple ideas here might be considered for the next version--I don't know about the current one.
In fact, I think Vlad's new mod might deal more growth and such--see his thread (Vlad the Imp).

quote: This way people/ai will have to choose better locations for cities and if they have extra cities they will have to keep everyone in them happy, which i would imagine limit (peaceful?) goverments like democracy that don't like military units out of cities to be less agressive (they should be allowed most cities tho) and aggressive war-goverments will have to deal with less cities. Also penalty for changing goverment could be little harsher, so people/ai should not like spies/diplomats on their territory and woudn't want anarchy (perhaps make it possible to support only 15 cities under it, so every time revolution happens every turn you will see your cities break of), but at the same time it should be harder to revolt stable/happy goverments, so people will have to pay attention to their infrastructure.

In govern.txt (default/gamedata) you'll see

TOO_MANY_CITIES_THRESHOLD 1000
TOO_MANY_CITIES_COEFFICIENT 0.5
MAX_MARTIAL_LAW_UNITS 5


Now, this is for Anarchy. These can been changed (along with others) to produce all the changes you're suggesting. I haven't touched anything regarding the governments, I'm afraid, and I'm not sure if there's a demand for these changes. But I'd suggest either beginning a new thread on the subject (to see what people think) or discuss this part with Vlad, since his mod deals with governments.
These may be personal preferences, I don't know, but I like the idea of tougher change-gov penalities personally.

Thank you for your ideas

	12-11-1999 21:07									#65
	Support Apolyton

Hey, people...

I have attempted to make the changes above a bit easier (again) to understand, since it still looked a bit bizzare to me--took out all symbols--so if there's anything still unclear, please let me know.

Thanks.

N.

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"I always wake up angry, cuz I always wake up me..."--Ministry.

"Ak ak-ak-ak ak, AK ak-ak, AK AKakak AK!"--Martian.

	13-11-1999 01:38									#66
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Wes, I think you asked something about the AIs trading amongst themselves. I believe they are as long as they are peaceful Civs. In most my games, the tech advances stay pretty close. No one has more than 3 techs than anybody else. In my current game, with all militant and agressive types there is a difference of 15 techs between the 1st place and last place guy so they are not trading.

To get around this, is there a way to increase the ability to steal techs from another Civ? I saw a thread about a 'hacker' unit which could do this but can't an existing unit be modified to do this? Also, what would the ramifications be of being able to steal more techs? Would that cause problems elsewhere?

Don

	13-11-1999 04:24									#67
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Don, the Spy can steal tech, I believe, though it's expensive.

------------------
Yeah, can you believe it. I got wiped out on chieftain. -Don Blevens (aka Scorpion59)
"Remember Salzburg!" -Austrian Premiere

	13-11-1999 08:52									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Wes,

Exactly. The spy is to expensive and comes to late. The Civ that is 15 techs behind can't build the spy yet and even if he could, it would be to expensive. That is why I never use diplomats/spies. They are useless unless you want to establish an embassy or spy on a city. The one in Civ2 is a lot more useful. Of course, this is just my opinion resulting from my personal play style.

Don

	13-11-1999 14:01									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I disagree on spies. They are quite useful and pretty well done in the game. The problem is that you don't NEED to use them unless you are way behind in science, and that doesn't happen until the AI is good enough. I personally don't use any special units unless I need to, and I think Noridus and WesW are going to provide that difficulty.

Civ2 spies were too powerful. Stealing tech should be difficult. I do think that special units should be able to become more powerful 'veterans' after a successful mission. I believe this is already written in, but disabled.

	13-11-1999 16:00									#70
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think both of you make good points. I have decided to reduce the cost of the Spy 20% in my mod, to 1200, and I may enable the veteran ability, if it exists. I wish you could vary the cost of stealing advances with the number of turns somehow.

How about making a new unit; an earlier version of the spy. Say we make it available with writing, and obsolete when the modern spy becomes available? Someone could either modify the spy sprite, or the diplomat, like they did for the Noble. Does this sound like a good idea?

------------------
Yeah, can you believe it. I got wiped out on chieftain. -Don Blevens (aka Scorpion59)
"Remember Salzburg!" -Austrian Premiere

	13-11-1999 23:54									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Wes,

Sounds good. As far as a new unit goes, I would like to try that. Can the noble be manipulated to steal technology for a test. A test could tell us whether this is a bad idea or not. It might be it causes some other problems.

Vlad,
You have some good points and I just have one thing to say, the AI IS now good enough. Try the latest version of Wes & Nordicus' files. (For an added bonus, play with Wes' Emperor-Specific files.) It makes me start looking at special units in a whole new light.

Don

	14-11-1999 06:40									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Some observations...

IMO, spies are valuable, from the standpoint of observation until Listening Posts. Several of them can be used to track what the AI is sending at you. In my book, that is probably the best use of them. It does seem so darn expensive to use them for inciting revolutions, especially against larger cities - especially if the percentage of sucess is only 50%.
4,000 gold is a lot for stealing an advance, especially when you factor in the 50% chance of success. I think that the risk also goes up when you choose a particular advance to steal too - at least I remember it that way. Using that tactic when you are coming from behind (and that is probably the only time you use that attack) is a big risk - lose and you fall even further back. So making an adjustment there might be in order.

City Numbers
CD implemented lower city number allowances in his mod - that was one of the best aspects of it. It forced me to plan my cities growth strategically, and made me have to make some tough choices on expansion, either by conquest or by peaceful growth, especially when having to deal with government shortcomings and the unhappiness levels they brought. I like the idea that a player has to use various governments. It forces a player to have to consider switching instead of using only a few governments during the course of the game, and that is not a bad thing to have to do. The Infinite City Sleaze factor was weakened too.

I'm assuming that this modpack is going to be compatible with CDs Mod and thus, will have the city number limits already in place - if not, maybe you should consider including some sort of city number limit in your Modpack.

Keep up the good work.

	14-11-1999 06:52									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

One other thing that I forgot...

You are right. Switching governments should be more painful. As it stands now, science is wiped out, production is reduced, and happiness goes up (there's some truth to that last effect). Does crime go up too? Never noticed that. Possibly increase the crime factor, (and place a higher penalty on production that way) is a possibility. Make a government switch take longer, or maintain happiness at the level it was before the switch or even reduce it slightly (oh wait, that would compromise the reality aspect of the game)

More fuel to the fire of ideas and suggestions.

	14-11-1999 10:13									#74
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are lines in the unit text for all the special abilities. Just copy the ones you want to the noble. Btw, could someone explain the 3 numbers to me. I know the first is the success rate. One other one should be the likelihood of getting captured if you fail, but what is the third one?

Does anyone know a name to use for this new unit? The only thing I can come up with right now is to call the new unit a spy, and rename the old one a secret agent.

	14-11-1999 13:10									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think Spy would be the appropriate name for the new unit and Secret Angent quite apt to replace the current Spy's name. I also think that this new unit should come after Classical Education, not writing. It seems to me that most technology exchanges before the idea of universities came from either friendly exchanges between civilizations or from military conquest. Once the university came about there was more an intrest into stealing secrets rather than taking them. Maybe instead of Classical education perhaps philosophy or alchemy. Considering the academies to act similar in school of thought and one up'ing each other or in the case of alchemy a definite attempt to steal each other's secrets in order to attain the stone. More ideas about the unit: Success rate should not be nearly as high as the spies or if it is the unit should have a 100% chance of being killed if caught (the times were tough back then). Also the unit should be pretty inexpensive. Cheap, doesn't work too often and dies a lot. It could still proove to be effective bt would also promote researching your own advances early in the game rather than stealing them just as it was in the past when lines of communication weren't nearly as advanced.

	15-11-1999 00:02									#76
	Put an end to popups!

Wes:
Like the idea, the new cost, and the veteran ability.
The new spy unit is a great idea. I like EKM's suggestions (thanks) regarding enabling advance and name, as well as the lowered success rate--might just be a "raw" spy version.

Don:
Yeah, most of this would have to be copied in the new one:

quote: ############## special flags ############################# MOVEMENT_TYPE_LAND MOVEMENT_TYPE_MOUNTAIN LOSS_MOVE_TO_DMG_NONE SIZE_SMALL CANT_CAPTURE_CITY VISIBILITY_CLASS_5 VISIBILITY_CAN_SEE_0 VISIBILITY_CAN_SEE_4 VISIBILITY_CAN_SEE_5 CANT_ENTRENCH CANT_PATROL IS_SPECIAL_FORCES IGNORE_ZOC HAS_NO_ZOC CAN_BE_EXPELLED DEFEND_AGAINST_SPIES 0.25 INVESTIGATE_CITY 0.75 0.1 0.5 STEAL_TECHNOLOGY 0.5 0.25 0. 5 SOUND_ID_STEAL_TECHNOLOGY_SP SPECEFFECT_STEAL_TE CHNOLOGY INCITE_REVOLUTION 0.4 0.25 0. 5 SOUND_ID_INCITE_REVOLUTION_SP SPECEFFECT_INCITE_ REVOLUTION PLANT_NUKE 0.25 0.25 SOUND_ID_PLANT_NUKE_SP SPECEFFECT_NUKE SPACE_CITY_CAN_BUILD CHEAT_INDEX 5 } ### UNIT DONE30 ###

As for the three numbers there...unsure. I think only the first needs changing, though.


Hex:
Agreed. And it is a tad too pricy too.
The mod was built on top of CD's framework, so there's no conflict of course. Some had to be altered, but the main improvements are still there.
About the govs...not sure. I'd love to see that, but I have no experience there. I'll leave that up to Wes, since he's been through set_govern.fli and so on. Doesn't seem too difficult, but that's easy for me to say since I'm ignorant
Thanks for the suggestions.



------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"I always wake up angry, cuz I always wake up me..."--Ministry.

"Ak ak-ak-ak ak, AK ak-ak, AK AKakak AK!"--Martian.

	15-11-1999 00:08									#77
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hey, people...

I included all recent changes in the above list, including the Barbarian alterations. Think I'll stick all these in a different thread too, since they're kinda getting burried in here.

	16-11-1999 06:09									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I will put this new unit in my Medieval mod 2, along with the spy unit alterations mentioned above. What we need now is someone to modify a sprite for the new unit. I will post something when I have decided no the specifics of the unit's stats, and let you put in final recommendations.

	16-11-1999 12:55									#79
	Inflate your Upload Space

Wes:

Hey, sounds good. As far as the sprite thing goes, I dunno. I've never done one (so this a warning of a stupid idea coming ), but can't a guy use the Spy sprite? I dunno, maybe copy it and change the number? *shrug*
Just a thought, such as it is.

	17-11-1999 05:22									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi WesW

I would be happy to make the sprite. A couple problems though. There is no way to decompile sprites for alterations. That leaves a couple ways to go. First is to take screen shots of the sprite you want and modify it that way. Another method is to find some sort of model in 3d format. Age of empires has some graphics too that may be usefull and there are programs out there that can retrieve the grapics from that game. Also I was mucking around in the test of time cd and noticed that the graphics format for units is also sprites I'm not sure if they are compatable but it may be worth a try. Although people have complained about the quality of the units for test of time.

For me it is alot easier to get 3d models cause there is less touching up to do. Also it would most likely have to be unanimated cos for 3d people models the program I have wouldn't be able to animated any kind of walking and arm movement.

Just a thought too but harlan or morgoth could also help you. Not sure if they hang around here much though.

------------------
Gemini

	17-11-1999 23:27									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Nordicus or Wes,

I tried stealing tech with a Noble in the game I just started. It cost $2000 and I didn't get the technology. I even went for the random tech which is supposed to have a higher chance of success. Is there a way to lower the cost? I don't think many people can afford to throw $2000 away multiple times in the early part of a game.

Don

	17-11-1999 23:51									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Don, the 2,000 gold is a problem. I searched, and couldn't find a setting for that anywhere. It isn't in the unit text, and doesn't appear to be in the const text, either. If we can't lower this, there is not much use in having the unit.

------------------
Yeah, can you believe it. I got wiped out on chieftain. -Don Blevens (aka Scorpion59)
"Remember Salzburg!" -Austrian Premiere

	18-11-1999 03:34									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Cost to steal technology is in order.txt

	18-11-1999 06:41									#84
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Gemini:
Hey, just emailed you. How's things?
Not sure if the format is compatible or not--don't have that or Civ2 for the PC. I wonder what the AI code looks like for Civ2?
Would the sprites be compatible also?

Have had no luck finding good naval vessel models I'm afraid


Don:
Very good point. I agree.

Wes:
Paul is right (thanks Paul), it's in order.txt, before the sound IDs--the trouble is that

quote: { ORDER_STEAL_TECHNOLOGY 2000 100 SOUND_ID_GENERALFAIL SOUND_ID_GENERALSUCCEED }

there is only one. One for each unit attempting to steal, so of course if you lower it accommodate the noble, the cost will be the same for a "secret agent" or spy unit. So, I guess one has to decide upon a common, generic value to suit all types. Maybe keep it low, I dunno, 750 or something, and merely adjust the chance of success per unit?
Whatcha think?

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"Why sell a man what he wants? Sell 'em what he doesn't need, pretend he's got eight legs and two stomachs and money to burn. It's wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!"--"Allie Fox."

"Remember Salzburg!"

	18-11-1999 06:47									#85
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Side tangent here--anyone know (or guess) what the numbers here (in pollution.txt) mean?:

quote: POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_SMALL_MAP { POLLUTION_TRIGGER 90000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 135000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 180000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 225000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 330000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTE R # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve } POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_MEDIUM_MAP { POLLUTION_TRIGGER 135000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 225000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 315000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 405000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 550000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTE R # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve } POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_LARGE_MAP { POLLUTION_TRIGGER 225000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 315000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 405000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 495000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 585000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTE R # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve } POLLUTION_TRIGGER_LIST_GIGANTIC_MAP { POLLUTION_TRIGGER 270000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 405000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 495000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 585000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 675000 POLLUTION_OZONE_DISASTER POLLUTION_TRIGGER 5000000 POLLUTION_FLOOD_DISASTE R # always make this last one an impossible number to achieve }

	18-11-1999 09:13									#86
	Suffering from ads?

Nordicus,
Ya I'm kind of interested to see if the units are compatible. I'll probably try it on the weekend or something.

------------------
Gemini

	18-11-1999 12:06									#87
	Suffering from ads?

There are several ways we could go with this.
We could leave the 2,000 gold alone, and give the early version a 100% success rate. Maybe make it cheap, and a one-time use unit, like a cruise missle. Or any combination of the above.
I think I will add this to my poll thread about the cleric and interceptor. (I haven't gotten any opinions there yet, so everyone interested will see this, too.)

	18-11-1999 13:08									#88
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Wes,
I like your cheap, one-time idea if it could be implemented.

Nordicus,
That is the amount of pollution points required to trigger the next disaster. (Flood turns land to water and ozone turns productive tiles into dead tiles.) For example, a base city puts out 15 points by itself. 30 cities putting out 15 points gives 450 points. 8 civs putting out 450 points gives 3600 points. On a large map, producing 3600 points per turn means the first disaster will occur in 62.5 years. The next disaster will occur 25 years later. So what, you say. No big deal. Well it is. Build a couple improvements and the city puts out 150 points x 30 cities x 8 civs and you get 36,000 points per turn. First disaster now takes 6.25 turns, second takes 2.5 turns more. This can be on the low side of common. My last game that totally melted down was producing over 500 points per city per turn. 500 points x 30 cities x 8 civs gives 120,000 points per turn. First disaster takes 1.8 turns, second takes less than 1 turn. And that is precisely what happened. Within 5 turns, my nice productive world melted down to nothing. In addition to all this, once your city hits 100 points per turn, it has a chance of producing additional ozone damage within its own radius. Which, of course, add to the overall global damage.

Obviously, there is a lot of variables here. It all depends on how many polluters your city builds and how many cleaners you also build. In my meltdown game, my Civ actually produced very little pollution, even though I had more polluters because I built all the cleaners. Your games with 12 or 16 Civs would get hit even harder.

What I wonder is does this mean you can only have 5 disasters and I just got them all in 5 consecutive turns or can it keep going up to the last number?

Don

	18-11-1999 23:23									#89
	Put an end to popups!

Don:
I was not aware of that. Interesting. This is obviously geared towards 8 civs only--I can't imagine the hell on earth with 29! OMG! No, this has to be adjusted for more players--not for our mod, though, unless it's clearly stated that it's for over 8 players. There ought to be one for 8-16 players and one for 16-32, as well.
Any other thoughts?

Gemini:
Sounds good. Lemme know how that goes.

Wes:
Still savin up for those glasses No, I totally missed the other thread, sorry. I'll go there after this.
The idea is good. As long as it's balanced one way or the other, I'm not worried. As far as the one-time use thing goes, I think this is all that defines that:

quote: SINGLE_USE

In special flags. Pretty straightforward, huh?

I don't think a separate sprite is needed (thanks for the offer anyway, Gemini)--here, this is from the 'noble' unit:

quote: DEFAULT_SPRITE SPRITE_DIPLOMAT DEFAULT_ICON ICON_UNIT_NOBLE DESCRIPTION DESCRIPTION_UNIT_DIPLOMAT

I presume a guy could do this for the spy, hey?

Anyway, off to check the other thread.

	19-11-1999 23:37									#90
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gemini : Yes, I'm still around - just more of a silent watcher at the moment.

Regarding the spy unit - what thoughts of period/costume do you want for the spy?

I might be able to do something this weekend so let me know your thoughts on this ASAP.