16-10-2002 13:27									#1
	Ideas For Updated Trait System Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I was reading a LOOOOONG thread tonight and got some ideas in terms of expansion of the game, I'm not sure if anyone has covered this before but I wanted to get it all down before I forgot and I would like to hear others ideas for this.

1. My first thought for a different system (and lets be clear, we're talking civ4 here not an XP) would be a three trait system(with a few more traits thrown in and editing done to the existing traits). examples added to what we have already in civ3:

america = expansionist, industrious, scientific
aztec = militaristic, religious, agricultural
china = militaristic, industrious, urban
babylonia = scientific, religious, political
egypt = industrious, religious, agricultural
england = expansionist, commercial, political
france = commercial, industrious, urban

germany = militaristic, scientific, productive
greece = scientific, commercial, urban
india = religious, commercial, political
iroquois = expansionist, religious, agricultural
japan = militaristic, religious, urban
persia = industrious, scientific, commercial
rome = militaristic, commercial, urban
russia = expansionist, scientific, political
zululand = expansionist, militaristic, agricultural

new:
agricultural = cheap granaries, one extra food per city (town/city/metro) or all, food producing squares +1 UNTIL size six (notwithstanding despotism) not really sure how to balance this
political = religious anarchy bonus moved here +something else, not sure what
productive = extra shield per town/city/metro
urban = one happy citizen when size = +6

existing but some changed:
expansionist = better goody huts, start with scout [same as now]
religious = cheap religious structures no more anarchy bonus
scientific = cheap science buildings, bonus tech at age turn [same as now]
industrious = double speed workers, no shield bonus
commercial = less corruption only
militaristic = cheap military buildings, easier upgrades (normal -> veteran)

keep in mind these are just examples, some others could be imperial, colonial, whatever. but it leaves room for a bunch of new UNUSED combinations such as
agricultural, political, urban
but would keep the playability of babylonia the same as religious(new) + political(new) = religious(old)


which would give a new civ the ability to grow rapidly, not have AS MUCH to worry about with happiness and switch governments often.
The idea here is to make room for more civs that all play very differently. I'm not saying that this system is balanced, far from it, but you get the idea. I'm also not saying all civs would be represented historically accurately, but it would be fun to play with.

2. my second thought is similar to the first but with some differences.

Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary civ traits

primary would be a civ3 existing trait
secondary would be a civ3 existing trait
tertiary would be one of a set of traits that only can be tertiary
example:

china: militaristic, industrious, (urban)
japan: militaristic, religious, (urban)
germany: militaristic, scientific (productive)
blah blah blah

the idea here being to keep say, the babs from being scientific, religious and commerical and dominating culturally in every single game by the ability to build every cultural building cheap even far away or the germans from being militaristic, scientific and industrious and building up an huge military empire instantly and roads to get them to you just as fast (these examples are with existing traits, not modded ones)

anyhoo, those are my ideas, let me know what you think.

my MAIN impetus behind this is to open up more new options for matching traits up in new combinations to make room for as many differently playable civs as possible.

thanks for your attention.

lateralis
good ideas? bad ideas?
let me know in the poll

	16-10-2002 14:39									#2
	Re: Ideas For Updated Trait System Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lateralis new: agricultural = cheap granaries, one extra food per city (town/city/metro) or all, food producing squares +1 UNTIL size six (notwithstanding despotism) not really sure how to balance this

I would go with half price granaries and either 0/1/2 or 1/2/3 extra food for town/city/metro

quote: political = religious anarchy bonus moved here +something else, not sure what

How about reducing distance corruption by 50% to represent the ability to coordinate a large empire?

quote: productive = extra shield per town/city/metro

Hmmm...how about 1/2/3 extra shields per town/city/metro, plus any town will produce a minimum of 2 shields no matter how high the waste? (remember, with +1 shield in each town, the city square itself is producing the 2 shields)

quote: urban = one happy citizen when size = +6

+1 happy citizen doesn't seem like much of a benefit. How about half price Aqueducts and Hospitals for Urban civs, to represent their ability to better plan larger cities?

quote: existing but some changed: expansionist = better goody huts, start with scout [same as now] religious = cheap religious structures no more anarchy bonus

Religious needs an extra boost if you take away the anarchy bonus. How about one extra content face in all cities?

quote: scientific = cheap science buildings, bonus tech at age turn [same as now] industrious = double speed workers, no shield bonus commercial = less corruption only militaristic = cheap military buildings, easier upgrades (normal -> veteran)

Commercial is weak enough as it is. Don't take away the extra commerce bonus!

	16-10-2002 16:03									#3
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First of all, I don't agree changing the old traits. Maybe slightly, to improve those that are somehow weaker (like commercial or expansionist)
For example, reduces distance corruption for expansionist civs.

Agricultural - OK

Pruductive == Industrious

Urban? - Not bad, but no civ is really urban. It is more likely a modern way of life (urbanism), not a civ specific trait. But if you want it, than give them cheaper aqueducts and hospitals

What the heck is political?? We're talking about civ abilities, not leader abilities.

I'd add:

Maritime
+1 movement on sea
-cheaper harbors

Nationalistic/Patriotic
-better chances to succeed in espionage missions
-more resistant to cultural assimilation (less chances for cities to defect/flip from you and more resistors if your cities are conquered)
-less war weariness

	16-10-2002 18:35									#4
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I think by political he means devious If anything it would make corruption worse. Just replace it with Patriotic, which among the things Tiberius mentioned, should lessen corruption (because you're too proud to steal from your country).

I like agricultural and patriotic. Productive I can do without, it's just industrial. Urban, wel.... Tiberius is right, it's just a modern way of life. If you want some kind of civ that prides itself on the big city life, well, industries also takes care of that.

Maritime is cool, but very very close to expansionist philosophically, and giving it a +1 movement on sea gives it an automatic wonder, very unbalancing. If that civ got wonders like Lighthouse or Megallans expition its tiremes could out maneuver destroyers! Not good. Maritime should stick to cheaper ships/docks and maybe get a free transport ship with each harbour built.


I also think that civs should STICK TO 2 TRAITS. I think this is very important because you can then have more civs without cloning and 3 traits would loos the focus of a civ.

	16-10-2002 20:55									#5
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quote: Urban? - Not bad, but no civ is really urban. It is more likely a modern way of life (urbanism), not a civ specific trait. But if you want it, than give them cheaper aqueducts and hospitals

the main idea here was to differentiate from agrarian. the two types of societies are very different. (i think) anyhow, tell the ancient aztecs they weren't urban and see what they do to YOU! However, I do like the idea of cheap aqua/hosp. the happy person came from the fact that Usually for me, +6 is when I start getting civil disorder in most games with no luxuries

quote: Productive-plus any town will produce a minimum of 2 shields no matter how high the waste? (remember, with +1 shield in each town, the city square itself is producing the 2 shields)

i definately like this idea!

also, the main reason for splitting some of the more powerful traits was to make there be more triats out there. Like I said, It's far from balanced as it stands now(my edits, not the game itself), but a good starting point i think.

keep these suggestions coming

lateralis

--edited for clarity--

	05-11-2002 16:40									#6
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Most impressive work lateralis. First:

quote: I also think that civs should STICK TO 2 TRAITS. I think this is very important because you can then have more civs without cloning and 3 traits would loos the focus of a civ.

I can't buy into this. Vanilla Civ 3 already has two clones - the Aztecs and the Japanese. What's the dif between these Civs? Only the UU. I'm sorry but it's pure matematics: three traits will give you far more variety than two. More variety=less cloning.

I want to expand on these ideas more, as they're totally awesome. This is a direction I'd love to see Civ 4 go. But the wine resource has claimed me for this evening - it's late, and I gotta earn those dollars in order to buy PTW! Good work here lateralis!

	05-11-2002 16:51									#7
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About the maritime -

When civ has researched writing&pottery, It will get mapmaking for free.

	05-11-2002 17:44									#8
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I don't like the trait system but I wouldn't want to change it like this. Whats funny is the bonuses for agricultural produce the effect of a more urban society.

More traits might be fun for a person bored of the game who wants different styles of play but I think if the idea is kept simple it increases the elegance of the game.

I think the original trait idea is a good one, needs to be balanced a little better though. What I don't like is that traits are bound to the civs. I would like to start a game choose my civ and then choose the traits I would like to play with. Can you do that in the editor? I've never even opened it.

	05-11-2002 19:38									#9
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Continue posting at 4AM, it's the perfect hour. I can attest it

	05-11-2002 21:19									#10
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I think the extra trait will allow more variety and less cloning which can only be a good thing.

But I would hope for more in any new system. I would like to see traits determined by circumstances. For example:
building 4 coastal towns gains the maritime trait
Capturing 3 enemy cities gains the militaristic trait
building 4 temples gains the religious trait
building 4 workers gains the industious trait
exploring 15 tiles from your capital gains the expansionist trait
etc.

once a civ has accumulated 2 or 3 traits, that's it. Your traits are fixed.

This would mean that land locked civs would not gain the maritime trait, as you'd expect.

additionally because the traits are to an extent player determined there could be synergies built into the system or they could determine UUs

e.g. expansionist + maritime = Man O'War

	06-11-2002 02:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace I think the extra trait will allow more variety and less cloning which can only be a good thing. But I would hope for more in any new system. I would like to see traits determined by circumstances. For example: building 4 coastal towns gains the maritime trait Capturing 3 enemy cities gains the militaristic trait building 4 temples gains the religious trait building 4 workers gains the industious trait exploring 15 tiles from your capital gains the expansionist trait etc. once a civ has accumulated 2 or 3 traits, that's it. Your traits are fixed. This would mean that land locked civs would not gain the maritime trait, as you'd expect. additionally because the traits are to an extent player determined there could be synergies built into the system or they could determine UUs e.g. expansionist + maritime = Man O'War

The great option into all this is wether we should build our culture or take an already made one.

You take French? Well if you want exactly the French we know NOW as they are, it's all predetermined.
Ooooorrr, you can take French and decide how they will be to a certain extent (or even completely, depending).

Personnally, I would be more for customizing than stable cultures. The best would of course let it be an option but I guess you cannot easily build 33 kinds of Civ IV Stil could maybe...

SMAC rulez... could really BUILD your civilization. Not only its exterior, but also the inside. So how could we make a mix of what is in these marvelous posts from lateralis and TacticalGrace?...

PS: But maybe traits shouldn't be fixed, as they weren't in history, and for gameplay/balance reasons.

	06-11-2002 02:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Raijer I can't buy into this. Vanilla Civ 3 already has two clones - the Aztecs and the Japanese. What's the dif between these Civs? Only the UU. I'm sorry but it's pure matematics: three traits will give you far more variety than two. More variety=less cloning.

The Aztecs and Japanese also have different starting techs.

Two traits out of six giv you fifteen possibilities, three of six give you twenty possibilities. Four of six and your back to fifteen.

Add a seventh trait Two of seven give you twenty-one possibilites, three or four of seven give you thirty-five.

quote: I want to expand on these ideas more, as they're totally awesome. This is a direction I'd love to see Civ 4 go. But the wine resource has claimed me for this evening - it's late, and I gotta earn those dollars in order to buy PTW!

My personal favorite added trait: complacent (if you prefer, fatalistic). There is only a 50% chance of pop-rushing creating unhappiness (or, just on even-numbered rushes), and war weariness is halved.

The Russians would definately be "complacent".

	06-11-2002 08:29									#13
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I'm thinking traits should be based on time. Every once in a while, you may be able to get one, (ie. build four marketplaces before the Medieval Age) and, potentially, you could get all of them, so they'd have to be relatively difficult to get. Though I wonder if this would cause 'richer get richer' syndrome. Of course, the game does anyway..

	07-11-2002 00:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by One_Brow The Aztecs and Japanese also have different starting techs. Two traits out of six giv you fifteen possibilities, three of six give you twenty possibilities. Four of six and your back to fifteen.

Good point about Aztec vs. Japanese starting techs. That does make a difference!

As far as the number of combinations, if you had a total of, say nine traits, then two traits out of that should give you 36 different possibilites. If you add a third trait into that mix - well, I don't have my scientific calculator, but the number would be higher!

quote: Originally posted by TacitcalGrace But I would hope for more in any new system. I would like to see traits determined by circumstances. For example: building 4 coastal towns gains the maritime trait Capturing 3 enemy cities gains the militaristic trait building 4 temples gains the religious trait building 4 workers gains the industious trait exploring 15 tiles from your capital gains the expansionist trait etc.

I like this. Maybe you could start out with one trait, and earn the other two. This strikes me as both more realistic (ie I think many a civilization trait is going to be largely determined by environment), and more tactically advantageuos (adaptibilty=success).

I think we have at least four excellent candidates for new trait status:

Agricultural
Patriotic
Maritime
Productive

quote: ibid My personal favorite added trait: complacent (if you prefer, fatalistic). There is only a 50% chance of pop-rushing creating unhappiness (or, just on even-numbered rushes), and war weariness is halved. The Russians would definately be "complacent".

This is great. We were discussing this very topic on another site, and the idea of "negative" traits came up.

Decadent: Increased cooruption, but increased happiness as well (espeically after building the "Strip Club" improvement!)

Lazy: Worker productivity halved, but workers from other civs have a chance of "slack-flipping" over to your civ!

It may also be cool to have city improvements that only specific combinations of traits can build - what those would be, I have no idea. Yet.

	07-11-2002 01:03									#15
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wow, a bunch of great ideas! If we combined the "gaining traits" idea with "negative traits" this could get really interesting!! like for instance, lets say you're playing a war mongering game and you raze a lot of cities and draft alot, you could get an "Oppresive" trait that would make culture fippling away from you much more likely or make WW more of a problem. However, if you play a warmongering game without drafting and keeping captured cites and building happiness improvments to quell the people you could become "colonial" or "empirical" (like an empire maybe? :hmm: ) which could decrease corruption in far flung empires.

I'll keep thinking and try to come up with some more examples. I love these thought experiments

lateralis

	07-11-2002 07:31									#16
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...Or what if you add 'cumulative traits' that appear only after a certain time; example:

after Industrial age:

Mulitcultural
or
Nationalistic

come into being...

Multicultural gains population growth and improved relations with other nations; but corruption is higher (to simulate the troubled bureaucracy- or perhaps time to build could be increased? Although this perhaps should be part of a choice of Bureaucracy or Liberal Anarchy style of 'mini-govt' trait?) ... Sadly I can't think of an appropriate anti-action for Multicultural? Perhaps someone else can elaborate?

Nationalistic gains 2 shields and +1 to attack? or -1 to corruption? (Something to simulate the growth of nation-states in europe) [Special enemies with Religious civs?] (to simulate Germany's dislike for Rome and the splitting that accompanied the Protestant Reformation and the formation of Nation States into secular societies?

...These traits could either be picked or influenced by how the player had been playing the game beforehand.

	07-11-2002 09:18									#17
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You know, this is growing similar to the way traits are developed in Empire Earth. Except in Empire Earth you would get to choose traits, though there would be a lot more of them, and any individual one is not game breaking.

	08-11-2002 08:24									#18
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...Why ignore a great idea then?

Traits are a good idea? Especially like Empire Earth's... why lose that dimension just because it;'s a rip off ?

	08-11-2002 16:49									#19
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I prefer the idea of giving each civ a major and minor trait, with the "minor" version of the trait being a scaled-back version of the major (the major would be the normal form). Minor industrious would have workers at 150% speed, as opposed to 200%; minor religious would have religious buildings 25% cheaper, as opposed to 50%, and two turns of anarchy instead of one; etc.

Each civ would still get two techs at startup-- one from their major trait, and a random other tech. (I'd imagine if your major trait is Scientific, you could choose the tech...)

	09-11-2002 07:19									#20
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quote: Each civ would still get two techs at startup-- one from their major trait, and a random other tech. (I'd imagine if your major trait is Scientific, you could choose the tech...)

Well, Vlad, I agree with you if it's a custom map, but if it's a world map then I think it should be set- or better still- before the game starts, teh use could customize the traits!

	10-11-2002 08:35									#21
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i'm perfecly happy with the trait sysem as it is... nice ideas though.
what i would do is replace expansionest(the part of the trait system i don't like) with agricultural. that would work well.
cheaper graineries and +1 food to all towns/cities/metros(not each square, just the city) would be good enough. of coarse, the despotism food limit would have to be removed for that to work.
hmm, that could be another thing they get, no food restrictions in despotism.