16-10-2002 17:45									#1
	Stealing Tech As A Strat to Start Wars Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This is a question on stealing technology as a means to cause opponent civs to declare war.

Situation: We are one of three closely matched civs left in the early modern era on a pangea map. Rome has attacked us and we did not counterattack for several turns while using our RR system, arty, and tanks to generate a run of great leaders. (Tanks almost automatically upgrade to elite if they defeat two opponents in one turn. That's easy to do after you use arty to redline incoming units. With a stack of elite tanks, you can get a GL every couple of turns.) Since Rome attacked, after we finally counterattacked and knocked out a couple of cities with armies, Rome went into anarchy and emerged in communism. So, they are effectively out of the tech race.

Issue: Can we use espionage to get Greece also to declare war? The goal is to force them into communism as well. That will leave us as the sole democracy with about 7 very expensive techs to research. Game nearly over.

What will happen if we research a path the AI does not follow (toward synthetic fibers) and steal technology from Greece, probably in the research line toward nukes? If the theft is successful, that is enough to cement a tech lead. The problem is that, if it is not successful, it is expensive and will retard research. However, if we are sure Greece will declare war and attack after failure of a tech swipe, that is the best outcome of all. (The AI has not got a chance to do much damage in an evenly matched modern-era war. They will end up in communism as well and we are not even worried that Rome and Greece will form an alliance at this stage. Bring 'um on as long as we are fighting on our RR system.)

So, for you folks that have experience with stealing tech, how sure can we be that Greece will declare war after an unsuccessful attempt??

	16-10-2002 20:57									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In an OCC game I just finished, I was thinking the about the same thing. The French and the Germans were the only two civs left after some quick wars, and they both decided to peace out and go into Democracy. This allowed them to research Modern age techs every 8 turns or so, effectively giving the AI a discovery rate of 1 tech per 4 turns. With my one city I could only get a tech every 15-20 turns.

I used Espionage to remain competitive, but eventually I knew that the French and Germans would have to go to war for me to have a chance at the win. I remembered that a failed espionage attempt sometimes causes the AI to declare war, so I signed an MPP with France. Unfortunately, the Germans were Gracious to me, so when I failed to steal a tech from, they just went down to Polite and didn't declare war. Fortunately the Germans attacked the French a few turns later and my victory was sealed.

So, my short answer is: I don't know for sure whether it is possible to get an enemy to declare war via failed espionage, but I would guess that it is. Another question is whether your reputation suffers.


Dominae

	16-10-2002 21:37									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks. Not the answer I wanted to hear but better to know the odds

	16-10-2002 21:37									#4
	Re: Stealing Tech As A Strat to Start Wars Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by jshelr ... Tanks almost automatically upgrade to elite if they defeat two opponents in one turn. ...

BTW, Any unit that attacks twice in one turn and survives, or defends twice in one turn, IS automatically promoted.

	16-10-2002 21:45									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In my last games, the AI always declared war after an unsuccessful attempt to steal tech, when they were furious or annoyed before. Maybe the aggressiveness of the civ is another point.

	16-10-2002 22:08									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

That's encouraging. We've been at war in this game practically all the time and their attitude is furious at the moment.

On the other issue, I think the survive twice = elite rule is too generous, given the power of artillery to make it easy. It turns late game wars into GL factories.

	16-10-2002 22:19									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

jshelr,

Call up Greece and demand stuff from them. Over and over until they are "furious." Then attempt your espionage. I dunno about stealing techs, but I did this once and simply failed to plant a spy - *boom* insta-war.

-Arrian

	16-10-2002 22:21									#8
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Oh, and on the subject of 2 wins = elite... well, consider that late game leaders aren't really all that powerful. Well, I guess rushing the UN out from under the AI is pretty powerful, but a skilled player can use prebuilds for essentials like the UN. GLs late are nothing compared to GLs early. I don't think it's really all that unbalancing.

-Arrian

	16-10-2002 22:28									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Agreed -- late GL's are not that necessary or helpful. They do help build armies to provide protection for tank or MA attacks and, if you max out your number of armies, they could build SS parts or nukes even. But you are right, usually they don't tip the balance much. They are just too cheap in some abstract sense, IMO.

	16-10-2002 23:06									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

In AU 107, I wanted war with Germany (then a democracy and a tech leader), but my Roman (non-rel) Republic wouldn't stand for extended offensive war. I figured I would get caught planting a spy and generate a declaration -- seems I get caught 3 out of 4 times. For the second time in the AU series (including the earlier minitournies), I intended to precipitate a war by planting a spy -- but managed to do so successfully! My attempt to then steal a world map generated the desired war .

In my limited experience, if they are furious with you, and if you are not a vastly superior foe, any failed espionage mission is likely to produce a war.

Catt

	16-10-2002 23:08									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I like Arrian's approach... it's emotionally satisfying too.

"Oh, you won;t trade ANYTHING for Sanitation??!! Screw you, then, how about I demand ALL your techs, and ALL your gold!! Makes you furious? How about I try to spy on you? Yeah, you wanna fight... COME ON!!!!"

Re double wins and GLs, I value gaining higher retreat odds as much as anything, remembering that Tanks are freshly built at vet. Late GLs... factories in mediocre cities. Big whoop.

	17-10-2002 01:17									#12
	Remove this text

I have gotten a big boost in a few games late by getting leaders to rush improvement in otherwise useless cities. One game I remember I need BB to stop harrassments and got a leader to create one that would have taken forever to make in that city or send from some other place. They are not as big an impact as early game, but can be quite strong.

	17-10-2002 01:35									#13
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BTW, the max on Armies can be quite annoying... in AU 107, I hit the limit while still on Cavs!!

5 2x Legion
3 3x Cav

The next leader built the Pentagon... in the Medieval Age!

	17-10-2002 16:52									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There was a post over on fanatics that suggested littering the landscape with size one cities in order to create a larger capacity for armies.

	17-10-2002 18:43									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Theseus, you are out of control. EIGHT armies in the medieval age? Well, I suppose if all the wonders had been built and you were totally satisfied by your Palace position... but STILL!

-Arrian

	17-10-2002 19:04									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

BTW, as it turned out, Greece was unwilling to attack after unsuccessful espionage. We had a much more powerful military and that was probably the reason, although who knows. Fortunately, it didn't matter because, after building seti and research labs, we coasted away to a two-tech lead.