16-10-2002 19:20									#1
	How get AI to accept X gpt? Suffering from ads?

Some of the older play hints suggest it is possible to bankrupt, or at least slow down, AI by making many GPT trades.

In a trade offer, the AI will often accept 40 Gold as lump sum, but never accept 1 GPT. This does not make sense that AI would accept spending 40 gold for a trade but would not accept spending 20 gold.

What gives?

-- PF

	16-10-2002 19:51									#2
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Following one of the earlier 'exploit fixes', I have been unable to ask for X gpt unless it was in demand/blackmail. They themselves can propose gpt deals, i.e. they offer 25 gpt for a resource, but if you click on their 25 gpt, clearing it from the board, then *ask* for 25 gpt, they'll reject it, I've found.

	16-10-2002 20:37									#3
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It could be your reputation is lacking or the AI doesn't have the financial ability to complete the 20 turn deal although 1 Gpt shouldn't be a burden.

	16-10-2002 22:31									#4
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quote: Originally posted by miccofl It could be your reputation is lacking or the AI doesn't have the financial ability to complete the 20 turn deal although 1 Gpt shouldn't be a burden.

too early in game for reputation hit. Actually happened in last several games. If willing to accept 40 gold deal why shouldn't it also be willing to accept a 20gold deal.
20 gold is 20 gold. I would expect 18 gold lump sum to be equivalent to 1gpt, or 20 gold over the 20 turns.

-- PF

	16-10-2002 22:48									#5
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There are some logical inconsistencies in the AI trading rules. You will find cases where they just are not doing things in thier own interest, like Rome refusing to offer anything for iron in the ancient era. Sometimes they will not do per turn deals that are hugely in their favor. They just won't consider that form of trade. It might be interesting to make a journal record of some of these instances, and the one you've spotted here certainly is an example of logical inconsistency.

	16-10-2002 23:57									#6
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The widely-held and often-repeated view, and one that I suscribe to but have nmever tested, is that the AI will simply never accept a gpt deal that pushes its per turn income into the negative, and is unable to factor a lowering of science spending into its calculations of how much gpt makes sense. For example, with a treasury of 1,000 gold, but a per-turn income of only 1 gpt, the AI will never accept a deal for 2 gpt, even though (1) the treasury is more than adequate to cover deficit spending for 20 turns, or (2) the science slider could be reduced to generate a greater per-turn surplus.

I believe this is the case largely through in-game observation (no testing) -- it seems particularly evident when you negotiate a "sweetheart deal" with an AI civ -- i.e., you offer a vlaued tech for a whole mess of assets, all of which is acceptable, but when you change to the same tech for gpt, you can go from 26 gpt as "acceptable" to 27 gpt as "never accept this deal" even though the equivalent of 27 gpt in other assets is wholly acceptable.

One important note on gpt deals -- it also seems that if an AI enters into a gpt deal which later becomes unaffordable, it will choose to declare war in order to get out of the deal. When trading with a foe against whom you do not want to fight, it might be a good idea to not squeeze every last gpt out of that foe -- something as simple as pollution, or a culture flip, may deprive it of the necessary income to meet its current obligations -- boom! war. For this reason, I usually back off on the gpt limits considerably in the later stages of the game when I don't want a war with a trading partner.

Catt

	17-10-2002 00:01									#7
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Catt--

Very interesting. I was looking for gpt not to get the maximum gold out of other civ but hoped if other civ was willing to enter into a gpt deal they would be more likely not to declare war if it was easy for them to maintain the gpt. The academy on civfan suggests using gpt to bankrupt AI, but that was not my goal.

-- PF

	17-10-2002 02:21									#8
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I have nticed that if it is late in the game and I offer something they need, they will say can't be done. If there is no reason, such as an imbargo, and they are furious with me, it seems to be a tip off that they are planning to attack me.

	17-10-2002 04:51									#9
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I am playing a game currently where I have 2 Civs, Russia and Persia down to an island city a piece. When I offered a peace treaty I was able to get 30 and 25 gpt, respectively. Even though each civ was down to 1 city!

	17-10-2002 04:55									#10
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What size were those cities? A population 12 island city ought to be able to pull out 25 gpt even is despotism at 100% taxes... plus, there's always the possibility that they might be recieving money too.

	17-10-2002 05:10									#11
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Thet were at the far ends of their empires so they weren't very big, but I'm at work so can't say for sure how big they are.

The russians, I believe, were maybe a size 4 city.

	17-10-2002 20:22									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The AI will not accept a gpt deal if it puts its yearly income into the red.

A little hint for trading is never accept the intial gpt figure go up 5-10 above then work your way down till the AI agrees you may screw some more gpt out of them.

bankrupting the AI this way is great you can gain a huge advantage especially if you have loads of luxuries or resources, if the AI needs oil man he'll pay for it ...make him pay dearly.

	18-10-2002 04:27									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Thet were at the far ends of their empires so they weren't very big, but I'm at work so can't say for sure how big they are. The russians, I believe, were maybe a size 4 city.

Turns out the Russian city was size 5, and they were giving me 65 gpt not 25 gpt as stated previously.

	18-10-2002 06:28									#14
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Yup, an AI will generally only offer as many gold per turn as it is currently taking in. Not only that, it often will not accept more gold per turn than you are currently taking in. You can usually fix the latter problem by reducing your science spending to zero before negotiating. If you want to offer even more than that allows you, it will have to be up front.

So the AI knows your per turn income. But then, you can usually figure out theirs: Offer as much as you possibly can to them, and when raising the gpt you request in return by just 1 changes an acceptable deal into one they would never accept, the requested amount just exceeded their income.

Not understanding the possibility of deficit spending or reducing science spending really restricts the AI's ability to trade, presumably with other AIs as well as with the human. If this were to be fixed in the next patch, it could have a big impact on the game...