17-10-2002 01:12									#1
	War Academy: Next taget England or France Support Apolyton

We are fast approaching a decison on who to attack first. For the record I have plans for both attacks that can work. I want you all to post here your opinions about which country is more important to attack. I will post my plans tomorrow, but want your ideas first to make sure I haven't missed anything. Additionally I am very busy today so can't post until much later tonight.
Aggie

	17-10-2002 01:35									#2
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France, because of the saltpaper and because they're much easier so we can accomplish all of our goals within five turns and then sue for peace, thus minimizing war weariness.

	17-10-2002 01:43									#3
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France, the saltpeter and iron are valuable, and if we're lucky the Germans will take London and take the cultural pressure off Arabela.

	17-10-2002 02:01									#4
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Let the Peace be!

Are we Apolytonians or Mongols?

We can still prepare for (inevitable) wars, but let's not start the next one.

Those fearing the lost opportunity for GA: there will always be that last spearman/archer/swordsman defending an enemy city, after killing all the musketeers/pikemen.

Last edited by dejon on 17-10-2002 at 02:28

	17-10-2002 02:18									#5
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We are evenually going to need to annex England.
(Needs done by the time the Forbidden Palace gets completed out there.)

But I think we can annex France now with Knights and latter annex England when we have Calvary. The question is can we annex France without the Eastern Knight forces?

Realpolitic, the Iron is so valuable that almost any deal we make with it with be less than full value and merely 1 gold less than can't be done.

Saltpeter is a more usuable resource. I do suggest that overseas customers would be prefered this until we have Tanks for our own safety. (Especally if we get 4)

Also keep 1 extra of each resource in reserve because resources have a habit of moving.

	17-10-2002 02:18									#6
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I'd like Germany to attack England but I wouldn't like them to win. A bigger Germany would be a greater threat then a medium-sized Germany and a medium-sized England.
I'd prefer it if Germany went to war with England and only exchanged a few cities. This is basically bad for their economies and good for us.
Furthermore, we can take advantage of the situation and ally with Germany against England. Germany will offer a free tech and more for an alliance against England should they declare war.

	17-10-2002 02:24									#7
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I agree with Shiber, if Germany attacks England, stop a turn chat so we can declare war on the English and invade right away to minimize Germany's enlargement. This is another reason we need to keep the eastern Knight forces out of the French theater.

If Germany instead attacks the Aztecs, let them fight it among themselves, but be ready to jump on Germany in the unlikely event that the Germans start losing.

The potiential for this war is one of the main reasons I support the Culture Flipping proposal.

	17-10-2002 02:46									#8
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I agree with England as a long-term goal, ideally AFTER the Forbidden Palace is completed in our new Persian province.

	17-10-2002 02:48									#9
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Whoa whoa whoa, Aggie what's your timetable on these attacks?

I need to know this, I reserve my opinion until I do know. Once Term 6 rolls around and there is no more MoE, you can push me around, but right now... }:-) devil grin.

	17-10-2002 03:05									#10
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If we not just finished a huge war, I would say fine, invade France, conquer them, they deserve it, its a good idea; HOWEVER, I am INFINIETLY DISMAYED at the discussion of annexation of England, and the immeadiate preparation for ANOTHER war on France! I am outraged, I am flabbergasted, I am furious!

NO MORE WAR!

Apolyton does NOT need to become a bloated over-expansist state. Not only is it uncalled for, but it is a potential disater. We are running a Democracy game. I fear that with too much land and too many units to command, the game will lose all interest.

NO MORE WAR!

I will no longer intervene in this thread with unreasonable protests to the planning of the war, I will not protest until the plans come up for vote; however, I will make every effort to point out potential flaws in the plan that I see, and perhaps I will even add to the plan myself. We'll see what kind of warmonger I can be.

	17-10-2002 03:12									#11
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Woo Hoo - way to go Thud!

(and to think I debated using one of those little red guys)

	17-10-2002 04:14									#12
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My opinion comes down to this:

In terms of expansionism , I would propose we first send our forces to England. Provided what our objectives would be for that campaign, I think if we conquered the English then we would most certainly own more than 1/4 of the continent (not counting lands beyond the French empire), and that would be a huge sphere to influence and control. That would also allow us to defend (or attack) the Germans on multiple fronts. We would OWN the the Eastern Ocean (as of yet not named by the way)

France (still in expansionist terms) would be smaller territory to overrun, and it would place us at a strategic advantage over the other nations, ie owning the bottleneck of our continent.

In terms of exploration : owning France would be nice. That would give us an ability to project our influence on BOTH western and eastern. The strategic importance of France is that iron and saltpeter (conveniently on our border with them). ENGLAND would probably put us closer to the lost civs however.

Tough call. It's either limited war with France to grab those resources, or an extended (but fairly limited) war against the English for some prime coast cities and a greater sphere of influence.

Hmm.....I choose France. We can't last a long war, especially in a republic. A quick campaign against the French are in our best interests.

	17-10-2002 07:05									#13
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The French campaign may not be so short if they get saltpeter very soon!!!

	17-10-2002 07:33									#14
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France!

	17-10-2002 09:41									#15
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First of all for both wars I like to tie things up and have peace within 8 turns, most likely with england it would be closer to 5. England war would be limited by one simple fact, they have GP and salt peter so our best hope is to take the southern tier of cites and then hold off counter atatcks until turn 5 and negotiations, of course things could go better( i doubt worse considering the forces) and we could go up to London.
With france we would take the cites on the se coast and also the mountain cities, since we need to keep forces for defense the 20 knight attack isn't possible.
Reddawg, this attack isn't imminent it is at least 10 turns away and probably closer to 15 or more. This thread is simply a brainstorm for the attack IF it should take place and a place to announce your preference.
Aggie

	17-10-2002 09:51									#16
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My current plans are to renegotiate peace with everyone except France in 670AD.

I am renegotiating with England unless there's a massive outcry against it. They're currently a major importer of our spices and good for our economy. I would suggest that if we went to war with England, we hold off until after Cavalry ... or you talk the nation into doing it NOW before they have a lot of Musketeers.

But time is short for such decisions.

--Togas

	17-10-2002 12:37									#17
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Togas is right, England helps our economy enough to be important to us right now. I think the French need to go down.

	17-10-2002 12:51									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Thud NO MORE WAR! NO MORE WAR!

That, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call war weariness. Down with Republic and Democracy! God save the King... erm, or later the Great Chairman. Just kidding .

	17-10-2002 12:58									#19
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Can you simply not renegotiate a peace treaty without declaring war in the process in 1.21? If you can't then we'll either have to postpone the war by 20 additional turns or attack when the treaty expires.
I'm at school right now. Could someone please check this?

	17-10-2002 13:30									#20
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Sir Ralph you know you want to go commie, you know it!!!

	17-10-2002 14:21									#21
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Thud said it all.

	17-10-2002 22:51									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Can you simply not renegotiate a peace treaty without declaring war in the process in 1.21? If you can't then we'll either have to postpone the war by 20 additional turns or attack when the treaty expires. I'm at school right now. Could someone please check this?

you can leave the peace treaty alone for a long time, but if we don't renegotiate for it, we get nothing extra in return.

	17-10-2002 23:08									#23
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I see France as the only immediate war need. Anyone else is not as crucial to our development.

France's two saltpeter are on our doorstep and those are THE commodity to trade during this era. Ships and ground forces require it.

I feel it is time to absorb ALL of France.

	17-10-2002 23:12									#24
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quote: I feel it is time to absorb ALL of France.

"Your feelings serve you well Ghengis Farb, but don't let them cloud you judgement"

	17-10-2002 23:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by zeit "Your feelings serve you well Ghengis Farb, but don't let them cloud you judgement"

Well we NEED Rheims as its a threat to our security and is a dangerous staging area for a French suprise attack.

We should take the two saltpeter as its cost effective and the money and strategic advantage from controlling FOUR of the single most strategic resource of this period is incalcuable.

Which leaves us with several French cities and France a mere speck so we might as well take the whole thing since at that point we would never have to worry about flips or riots as their civ wouldn't exist anymore.

Simply logic.

	17-10-2002 23:57									#26
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I heartly agree, GF, and already commented on this issue on the previous War academy thread, My quot was nothing but humor.

	18-10-2002 00:05									#27
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Might it be better to simply sit of the extra Saltpeters during the Middle Ages and NOT sell them, thereby insuring that at least one Civ won't be able to upgrade Spears/Pikes to MusketMen ?

	18-10-2002 00:06									#28
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my reflection on the war with france from my previous Academy thread:

-The way i see it, a war with france has two sides- on one hand- they are weak, and we'd take their cities easily, sue early for peace, etc. This will also give us the extra saltpeter, and, IMO more important- give us a GA, which in this stage of development is crucial and most benefitial.
France is also, compared to Germany, the 'weakest kid in block' and as we always used to pick on the weak and rip the profits, we might as well do it again.
On the other hand- and this is absolotely right- we have much better things to do right now with our lytons and our production, and somehow this war doesn't see all that necessary and worthwhile, and the terrain is disadvantageous for our knights.

I would have agreed to postpone such an opperation until further notice if not for two main reasons:

1)The frenchies have saltpeter but no gunpowder- and in the next 10 turns are not expected to raise enough for the creation of strong musketeer force, and this is our chance.

2)The GA we (at least I) crave for is just around the corner, and we won't get a much better chance for using our WC against a bunch of lowly warriors and swordmen

	18-10-2002 00:16									#29
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Might it be better to simply sit of the extra Saltpeters during the Middle Ages and NOT sell them, thereby insuring that at least one Civ won't be able to upgrade Spears/Pikes to MusketMen ?

Saltpeter is only dominent for a specific period. I don't think riflemen require saltpeter for some reason and I know Infantry does not require it.

	18-10-2002 00:38									#30
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Aggie, what cities are you planning to take? Are there some that will depend on the results of the first turns of the war? Could you provide an outline of your plans for the war? What your overall objectives would be? I'm assuming that you will leave France somewat intact with just a few cities left.

What are your plans if one of the other Civs desides to help France, depending on which one?

E_T