18-10-2002 04:16									#1
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing One issue I have been thinking of... how many "official" people are on the roster? Anybody and everybody who has signed up since term 1. Over 300 by now I would guess. Yet we get how many in a typical election? 50 is a good turn out. We should either get rid of the whole sign up thing, or have a method of re-signing up every month, to determine who is a citizen/senator..... OK. Enough rambling. I will make inteligent comments later once I get the chance to read it over. GK

I would like to know how many active members there actually are who subscribe to these threads, vote in elections, participate in discussions, and basically lend their voice to this forum.

Looking at the members list I have noticed that there are hundreds who have joined, but I have also noticed (as many others have) the very small amount of members who actually keep up in the game.

I think having a census of active members is a good idea, and should either be started in this thread or in a thread begun by an executive...

	18-10-2002 04:23									#2
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Meshelic -
Just for your information, and perhaps you may even find an old one, at the beginning of the demo game (5 terms ago now... wow, how time goes by....) we used to have a regular census. Most people got tired of it and it just dropped aside sometime in term two I think. It was done on a weekly basis, and often had general questions associated with it "Where in the world do you play from" kinda things.

Perhaps this is something we should consider restarting.

Oh, if this thread counts as it - HERE!!!

	18-10-2002 04:26									#3
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The problem is that even some of the most active people don't post or participate in these types of threads. Linney never voted in a single census poll.

	18-10-2002 04:31									#4
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Well if it's a mute point then I'll drop it and this thread will end up in the graveyard. No big deal.

I'm not suggesting a weekly census or even one every term, I just thought an update would be a good idea in light of this fifth term.

And I wasn't saying there should be other general questions along with it. Just a simple list of names in one document, that's all...

	18-10-2002 04:36									#5
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There can be some type of census, I'm just saying it won't be complete.

	18-10-2002 04:44									#6
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No. It is a good idea. We should discuss this issue (else I would not have brought it up in the first place). Perhaps someone has a better one.

	18-10-2002 04:55									#7
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If we are a democracy, then we should be free. Yes?

If we are free, then are we not free to come and go as we please?

I am positive that a number of people lurk, and possibly vote from time to time, or not. That is their right, and it should be IMO.

There is no problem with a thread to gauge active members. There may be if any official conclusions are drawn from it.

	18-10-2002 04:58									#8
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We added this into the NewCon:

Art II, Sec 2 e (iii) -- The Senate has the power to modify the quorum requirements or to perform a census without amending the Constitution."

Quorum was sticky. 25% of the Pres election wasn't the best way to do it. A Census would be better, but we didn't want to require it. So we added this in, and if the Senate (people) want to do a Census and change the Quorum # (required number of participants in a vote), it can easily be done.

I'm in favor of a Census. Maybe once a term? Maybe every other term? Could be a very useful piece of information, and it takes very little time to vote in it.

--Togas

	18-10-2002 05:40									#9
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I worked the US Census a couple of years ago; and agree that a census can be good, but also realize that it won't be 100%. Having worked the census IRL, you have people that don't want to be bothered, even if it was only for a few minutes, for any number of reasons.

I haven't posted here much lately, but I have voted in most polls and read a lot of the posts that interested me.

	18-10-2002 05:48									#10
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An idea:

Topped poll thread.

Vote consists of only one option "am here". This number determins quarum for that month.

People add one post, saying "here" if they like. When markG released the list of people who voted in the one election (which I think should not have been made public.... I will have to check on this issue in the new constitution, Judges/executive OK by me, just not public) we noted that many people had not joined "officially". the "Here"s could be used to do so in case something like this ever occures again. Yet if the Lurkers don't want to post, fine, so be it.

Just thinking out loud, so go ahead and rip this apart to make something better. I think it is an OK start but does need some work.

	18-10-2002 05:54									#11
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For effecting quorum? OK. Most likely. But the Presidential election accomplishes the same thing.

For restricting electors? I don't think that would pass Constitutional muster. Either now or under the proposed NewCon. Freedom of speech must include the freedom to say nothing, IMO.

	18-10-2002 06:04									#12
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quote: I wonder if this discussion can be combined with the one regarding quarum and a census? Census poll - topped thread. Vote: one option. # people who vote are quarum. Posts: If you post, you are also a senator for that month. This will not keep anybody new from joining, make being a senator "something special", and we seperate the senators from the citizens by making senators the only one who can propose laws or something. The Prime Senator or whatever, can be a position elected by the senators to: 1) start discussions 2) represent the senate in chats 3) be the one to keep the senates records (haven't seen any talk about this one yet) 4) post the census thread for next month, and keep it updated (the person must be around for that month, or an election can be held by the senators just prior to) this rough idea is slowly taking shape.... comments thoughts....etc

from my post in the other thread regarding the role of the senate.

	18-10-2002 06:11									#13
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I joined at the outset of the game. Then I emigrated to the Civ2Democracy game where I joined the government. I now lurk here often.

	18-10-2002 06:17									#14
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I like your idea GK. One button that says "I am here" is simple enough and will probably have the result I was hoping to get.

Numbers are what I was looking for, not really member names. I don't really care about that. It may be useful somehow if others see it that way but I was just looking to see how many people are generally participating at any time.

	18-10-2002 06:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay37 I joined at the outset of the game. Then I emigrated to the Civ2Democracy game where I joined the government. I now lurk here often.

How can you lurk anywhere with an avatar like that?



Good idea GK.

Oh, and for the record I am not active on this board.

	18-10-2002 06:43									#16
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quote: If we are a democracy, then we should be free. Yes? If we are free, then are we not free to come and go as we please? I am positive that a number of people lurk, and possibly vote from time to time, or not. That is their right, and it should be IMO. There is no problem with a thread to gauge active members. There may be if any official conclusions are drawn from it.

quote: For restricting electors? I don't think that would pass Constitutional muster. Either now or under the proposed NewCon. Freedom of speech must include the freedom to say nothing, IMO.

------------
The Quorom idea is interesting. As NYE has said freedom of speech means the freedom to say nothing. If we have a Quorum then a census does become useful. I wonder if it will really work or if the senate will have to make an amendment elimintaing quorums before anything else can be done.

	18-10-2002 07:07									#17
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The Senate is free to adjust quorum requirements by law. An amendment, and the higher bar for success would be unneeded.

	19-10-2002 17:18									#18
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So I'm assuming that nobody wants to know how many people are actually active and reading the posts every day (or every other day), or how many people are contributing their comments or statements to this nation.

I would have thought that those who rely on popular opinion (like all ministers, presidents, etc.) would have liked to know this, simply because this is supposed to be a democracy (people rule after all), but I guess no one cares about this.

	19-10-2002 17:32									#19
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Protect Lurkers' Rights!!

I think the idea of a census is fine to use for teh quorum, but if something like the Ninot-Trip election comes up, it is detrimental. When some people dont vote (and that is inevitable), in close and important polls there might be more than teh census anda disaster results, which could lead to the removal of lurkers' votes.

	19-10-2002 18:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Protect Lurkers' Rights!! I think the idea of a census is fine to use for teh quorum, but if something like the Ninot-Trip election comes up, it is detrimental. When some people dont vote (and that is inevitable), in close and important polls there might be more than teh census anda disaster results, which could lead to the removal of lurkers' votes.

I don't believe so. NOBODY'S votes may be removed unless some foul play is suspected in the vote!

I don't think I should have to repeat myself. All I wanted to know is how many people are PARTICIPATING REGULARLY in this democracy game (BEFORE or AFTER the elections does not matter at all. VOTES are not what matters, except to elect officials...OR In a 'voting' situation, all that matters is WHO DECIDES TO VOTE and WHO or WHAT THEY VOTE FOR.

Nobody can FAKE a vote.

Lurkers are more than welcome of course. I just wanted to know. I thought that people would be accepting of simply sending their name, or voting "YES I AM HERE" in a poll. That's ALL. But I guess I was wrong.

There WERE reasons that I wanted to know this, but I guess the majority has so far decided that it's probably not important enough at all. I feel that it IS important, and that we should be able to know how many people are really participating, whether it's 25, 50 or 300. I feel that it affects the gameplay QUITE a bit. But oh well, what do I know?

But if nobody wants to know how many members there are, then nobody necessarily needs to know why I wanted to know how many there were. I suppose this thread was pointless from the start. I didn't think it would be, but it didn't seem to draw quite the response I expected, so I guess the majority has decided.

	19-10-2002 18:08									#21
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Sorry if I sounded like an ass on that last post, I've just been aggravated by some things in my PL and I can't quite understand why this thread is having so much difficulty in getting responses from ppl. I thought the majority of the people would agree. Maybe I thought wrong.

	20-10-2002 00:50									#22
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I've been following this thread, but haven't commented on it simply because I didn't have much to say.

I think a census is a good idea (though the weekly censuses we used to have may have been a little extreme), and I'd be okay with regularly adjusting the quorum based on a census after the NewCon takes effect.

	20-10-2002 01:01									#23
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Alright, new day, things are looking brighter!

It isn't necessary for us to have a census every week (I can imagine that could be a nightmare), but I do think it would be worth it just to poll once or simply ask so we might know how many actual citizens there are here. There really are no downsides (or many benefits either).

I guess it's really no big deal in the end either way. Sorry to make such a fuss over something like this...

	20-10-2002 02:32									#24
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I would like census at the begining of every term, just tosee how many participate.
Aggie

	20-10-2002 03:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie I would like census at the begining of every term, just tosee how many participate. Aggie

Thank you Aggie! At least someone seems to agree with me.

	20-10-2002 03:57									#26
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Maybe one between elections in the middle of the term as well, since some people might drop out/become less active after or between elections.

	20-10-2002 04:05									#27
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Too bad we don't have a 'live' counter that clocks how many people come and go each day. And I don't mean like a website counter, but something similar, where instead of counting the number of visits to a page, it tallies the regularity of those visits. That make sense?

	20-10-2002 08:31									#28
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Markos probably has access to stats like that. Possibly.

	20-10-2002 08:50									#29
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Heh, I would probably break that counter, as I generally have about 7 windows open to this forum.

I also generally abstain from census polls. Just plain lazy. I have allot that I am trying to keep up on, and am generally breaking in here in between doing other things. I don't need to be bothered by a census.

	20-10-2002 17:28									#30
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quote: Heh, I would probably break that counter, as I generally have about 7 windows open to this forum.

Only 7?? I normally have around 12!