18-10-2002 08:23									#1
	AI annoyed by Privateers? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In my current game I attacked an american caravel with a privateer (the first time I found a use for them) and their attitude went from polite to annoyed.

I thought they "can attack without revealing their nationality"? Anybody used them? Seems most people never have built any.

	18-10-2002 09:57									#2
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I often build a couple just for "annoyance" value, and scoping out enemy territorary. I haven't experienced--to my knowledge--the situation described.

	18-10-2002 10:17									#3
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In my games I have found privaterrs to be worthless. They barely have enough attack to take on a Galley with any success. Maybe I should tweak it in the editor to make it a bit more formitable for the time when you get it.

	18-10-2002 11:51									#4
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I have found two uses for them. Apart from attacking undefended transport(which is BTW historically correct) I build them in fully developed ports and disband them elsewhere to speed up production there.

	18-10-2002 15:47									#5
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Well, I do build Privateers for the harassment value. I send them in opposite directions kind of like a sea scout but then when I encounter enemy transports I atteck them. The privateers concept was great in the Colonization game where you could actually profit from attck by being able to steal what was in the transports.


So long...

	18-10-2002 16:22									#6
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I once had in a game some time ago that the germans declared war on me, I reloaded, i wanted to know why, because I was stronger.
After some tests they kept declaring war on me, I tested again and removed my privateer from their territory and suddenly they don't declare war, so the AI even knows that it's your privateer, which it shouldn't be able to see, another AI cheat.

	18-10-2002 16:43									#7
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What I do is use them to block harbor access of my 'friends'. If you have a ROP, build privateers and stack them with a warship of yours. The privateers will block the ports and they won't be attacked because they are stacked with your units.

	18-10-2002 17:36									#8
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Privateers, along with all navies, are a waste of time in almost all of my games. Whats the point? IMO its an area where CIV3 really falls short.

	18-10-2002 17:43									#9
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SpencerH : I disagree, navies can be very useful. I have even seen the AI use them in an intelligent manner

	18-10-2002 17:47									#10
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The AI knows! And if you think it gets upset when you use a privateer, wait until you start sinking it's Privateers. It is going to be interesting to see the reactions of the human players in PTW - the AI knows but the humans won't.

	18-10-2002 18:06									#11
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quote: Originally posted by bongo SpencerH : I disagree, navies can be very useful. I have even seen the AI use them in an intelligent manner

I've seen the AI effectively use navies for bombardment and I've used them for the same thing (in maybe 1 in 20 games). Usually I dont build anything beyond a few galleys unless an enemy is using a navy against me. By the time you have arty and a rail network even the bombardment function of a navy is worthless.

The point is that the major function of a navy is not bombardment of roads and irrigation.

	18-10-2002 19:33									#12
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SanPelligrino,

I'm not sure what the AI knows. Last night, I built a largish privateer fleet (20 or so). Early on, I sank 1 or 2 Zulu ships. A couple of turns after that, they attacked me. Granted, they were "furious" with me, and had been nearly the entire game. So the attack may have happened anyway.

Later, after I removed 1/2 of the Zulu empire, my privateers began butchering the English navy, and shortly thereafter, the English attacked me. They had been "annoyed" after having been "polite" for most of the game.

Who knows? I probably would have been attacked anyway, but I admit being a bit suspicious.

-Arrian

	18-10-2002 19:35									#13
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SpencerH : I don't bother building large navies myself either until the AI navies becomes a major pain in the ass. Which BTW happens alot. Sure, artillery and a good rail/road network will scare them off a bit but I rather build that navy than run all over the place with workers to rebuild everything the AI have destroyed.

Oh, if your planning an invasion of another continent/island a navy can be handy for protecting those transports.

	18-10-2002 19:42									#14
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I agree with SpencerH on this one, although it depends on the kind of map you're playing on. On archipelago you definitely need them, where if you play pangea you can do without. It's still fun to play around with the navy though!


So long...

	18-10-2002 19:58									#15
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As I said, I dont see it very often but that may have to do with my map choice (usually random). I usually keep 20-30 arty anyway so they can take down any invasion fleet to 1 HP then whatever few ships I build quickly (including ironclads) can take em out.

	18-10-2002 20:21									#16
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Well, in my current game I thought, I could find a use for privateers the first time. It is an archipelago map, which slowed research a bit, because they couldn't make contact with some civs and settle some islands before astronomy. Then the run on the last unoccupied islands started. I didn't have many settlers handy, so I wanted to delay AI expansion towards this islands.

I thought finally it all makes sense

Too bad the AI knows about your privateers, but maybe a good method to start a war without taking the rep hit, just attacking with a few privateers!?

	18-10-2002 21:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm What I do is use them to block harbor access of my 'friends'. If you have a ROP, build privateers and stack them with a warship of yours. The privateers will block the ports and they won't be attacked because they are stacked with your units.

Good tactic , but it "feels" like an exploit to me.

	18-10-2002 21:23									#18
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I've eventually had to go to war over this. It's not like they don't know who's blockading them with my warships supporting them.

	18-10-2002 21:58									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Mattaba I once had in a game some time ago that the germans declared war on me, I reloaded, i wanted to know why, because I was stronger. After some tests they kept declaring war on me, I tested again and removed my privateer from their territory and suddenly they don't declare war, so the AI even knows that it's your privateer, which it shouldn't be able to see, another AI cheat.

Well, , I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. First - what was the German attitude toward you? If Furious, then maybe it was random and only a coincidence that war was declared when you left the Privateer in their territory.

If not furious, then it seems you are right, but perhaps you should try a couple reloads and see if they avoid war every time you remove the little Pirate.

One more thing - How many other Civs? Maybe the AI is smart enough to know that the other civs could not possibly be responsible and by a little deductive reasoning they conclude that you're the pirate!

( ooo... that's scary - AI capable of deductive reasoning! )

	18-10-2002 22:16									#20
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AI - smart?

No, I really can't imagine the AI knows it's your privateer, because the others have no saltpeter or no access to the ocean or something. I think like they know the map, they know your units. Seems I am not the only one who observed the attitude changing after a privateer attack and no Skeeve, I don't think it's only coincidende.

btw: what wiil it bei in MP? Will Privateers have a black flag? Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to identify the ship...

	18-10-2002 22:34									#21
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quote: Originally posted by SanPellegrino Seems I am not the only one who observed the attitude changing after a privateer attack and no Skeeve, I don't think it's only coincidende. btw: what wiil it bei in MP? Will Privateers have a black flag? Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to identify the ship...

Yeah, that's what I thought, just wanted to rule out coincidence totally.

I think the black flag would work, but how will you know which one is your own if other privateers are around? Maybe the user sees his own color as it is...

Otherwise, you would have to keep clicking until you find the one you have control over.

Also, I was thinking more about the deductive reasoning thing, and even though the AI can't do it, humans certainly can and will. For example, if a privateer attacks me on my west coast and the nearest western civ is human-controlled France, I might conclude that:

The Germans to my east have sailed around the world just to instigate a war between me and the French!! HA, I bet you weren't thinking that was my conclusion!

	18-10-2002 23:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Skeeve Well, , I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. First - what was the German attitude toward you? If Furious, then maybe it was random and only a coincidence that war was declared when you left the Privateer in their territory. If not furious, then it seems you are right, but perhaps you should try a couple reloads and see if they avoid war every time you remove the little Pirate. One more thing - How many other Civs? Maybe the AI is smart enough to know that the other civs could not possibly be responsible and by a little deductive reasoning they conclude that you're the pirate! ( ooo... that's scary - AI capable of deductive reasoning! )

The german attitude to me was annoyed. I tested multiple times and every time I removed the privateer, they didn't declare war, and every time I left it in their territory they declared war.
I don't know how many civs there were left, it was some time ago.

	18-10-2002 23:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Skeeve The Germans to my east have sailed around the world just to instigate a war between me and the French!! HA, I bet you weren't thinking that was my conclusion!

sounds like a good idea to have fun in MP, if everyone is suspicious

	18-10-2002 23:57									#24
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Mattaba,

Interesting. Now that I'm thinking about it some more, my original maurading vs. the English took place a long way from their territory. I was hitting ships in the open ocean. As I began to run low on targets, I moved my privateer fleet toward their island, and eventually entered their territory, hoping to lure ships out to kill.

Almost immediately, 2 galleons left an English port, sailed due west for 2 turns, and unloaded 5 Cavalry on my coast. Therefore, *if* there is a relation between privateers and AI declarations of war, it is (based on our experiences) most likely based upon a border violation. This suggests that the AI does, in fact, know that the privateer is yours, on some level at least.

-Arrian

	19-10-2002 00:10									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Mattaba, Interesting. Now that I'm thinking about it some more, my original maurading vs. the English took place a long way from their territory. I was hitting ships in the open ocean. As I began to run low on targets, I moved my privateer fleet toward their island, and eventually entered their territory, hoping to lure ships out to kill. Almost immediately, 2 galleons left an English port, sailed due west for 2 turns, and unloaded 5 Cavalry on my coast. Therefore, *if* there is a relation between privateers and AI declarations of war, it is (based on our experiences) most likely based upon a border violation. This suggests that the AI does, in fact, know that the privateer is yours, on some level at least. -Arrian

But now we can go even further with thinking.
Does attacking the AI with privateers make their mood towards you worse? Or is it only the territory violation that made them declare war?
I don't know but I think I'm gonna do some tests with that to know for sure.
My guess is that it does make their mood worse, I think that if it does, Firaxis implemented it to prevent overexploitation of privateers.

	19-10-2002 00:10									#26
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Arrian,

Interesting thing about the border violation, but I think attacking them is the bigger factor. I killed an american ship in roman territory, the americans went from polite to annoyed, the romans stayed polite. And the Romans didn't show up to ask me to withdraw my troops.

	19-10-2002 00:15									#27
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Has anyone seen an AI privateer? I havent.

	19-10-2002 01:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Has anyone seen an AI privateer? I havent.

i've seen a few. Once the destroy something, I'm told it was destroyed by XYZ's Artillery so I know XYZ attacked me.

	19-10-2002 01:31									#29
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Spencer,

Yeah, I got attacked by one recently (fortunately for me, my galleon, fully loaded with elite cavalry, fought them off). But it is rare.

-Arrian

	19-10-2002 01:38									#30
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I can't swear to it (don't use them enough) but I always thought that the AI "knew" it was your privateer attacking -- just that the "privateer" unit, as an unflagged vessel, doesn't invite a declaration of war since it is arguably acting privately (for booty) rather than "acting on orders of the civ." In my limited experience, aggressive privateering always caused an attitude deterioration among the AI victims.

And I've seen an AI privateer, but only once a long time ago (v1.07f / v1.16f / v1.17f??) -- it harassed an island city and my ships trying to resupply the city. BTW, in support of my untested view of the first paragraph, I could "Turn on Team Color Disk" under the preferences menu and see the nationality of the offending Privateer -- but of course had no way of telling the civ to stop attacking my galleys .

Catt