19-10-2002 18:58									#31
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I do not know how effective a truly late GA would be. I like to time mine to happen around the time of Cathedral Building and Sistine Chapel. Any earlier than that and it contributes to building small structures that are not too hard to build anyway. Also, a timing where it can help me to build a knight swarm is useful if I am in a war.

I have never seen an AI German UU since they are usually long gone by that time.

Carlos

	22-10-2002 15:41									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm going to try out a new tactic on my game that I never really tried before. I've been disappointed with artillery/cannons since I got CIV3 so long ago. Their bombardment just doesn't really help all the time, and I frequently end up missing my targets. But now that I remember correctly, I had only used them generally one here or two there, never really in major battle groups or assaults.

So I'm going to do this: create multiple forces of cavalry/artillery/riflemen. Probably 8 Cavalry, 5 Artillery and 6 or 7 riflemen. I think these should have devastating effect, although I know the artillery and riflemen will slow down the cavalry charge. Hmm...we'll see what happens.

	23-10-2002 01:53									#33
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Meshelic,

You are thinking too small. You need a stack of 8-12 bombard units. Then you should get about 4 hits on the city defenders.

-- PF

	23-10-2002 02:06									#34
	Panzers or ...!!! Got spare money?

As many of you know lately I have only been playing Germany recently. I have played games with over 200 panzers and with as few as 30.

Why aren't panzers great?

You are missing the point about panzers. You are looking at the value of an individual unit. This is like focusing on the Sergeant command and control task instead of on the 5 star generals role. Raise your sights to the general.

They would be totally awesome if the Industrial tech tree were more realistic. Did Germany need to master Atomic Theory in order to build panzers? I think not. If panzers were enabled closer to history, they should start with Mass Production.

Firaxis may have moved them to a seperate category to allow building some navy before big land wars begin.


Tech requirements for panzers:
01. steam
02. industrialization
03. nationalism
04. corporation
05. refining
06. steel
07. combustion
08. mass production
09. medicine
10. electricity
11. scientific method
12. atomic theory
13. electronics
14. Motorized trans-- tanks


Tech Requirements for Panzer busters, aka, MA
[Max.Min.Me]

01.1.1 Radio
02.1.0 flight
03.2.8 Ecology
04.3.9 Synthetic [MA]
05.3.0 rocketry [jet fighter]
06.3.2 fission
07.3.4 computers
08.3.3 nuclear power [power plants]
09.3.5 miniaturization [offshore]
10.3.6 laser
11.3.7 robotics [manu plant]
12.3.- space flight
13.3.- satellites

Assuming 5 turns/tech the effective working life of a panzer
is between 10 and 60 turns. In my games they usually last 35 turns.

Look what panzers competition is for build priority:

Jet -- 2x Off & Def
Nuclear Plant -- 100% increase in production
Offshore -- 3-8 shields increase for coastal cities
Manu Plant -- 50% increase in production

Assuming your goal is to maximize power and not lose your panzers to
MA, and these assumptions:

cities		        50

tiles worked		10

shield/tile		2

shields/city		20

panzer life span avg    35

panzer life span, min   10

water for nuke power	20

coast cities		15

jets needed		10 







Total Panzer life span production	

		

	Average	# turns

cities * shieldsPerCity * years	   35000

 - nuke plants			   -4800

 - offshore			   -3600

 - manu plants			  -16000

 - jets			           -1000

Net available			    9600



Max panzer production with improvements ==  96

Max panzer production with only panzers == 350



	Minimum	# turns	

cities * shieldsPerCity * years	   10000

 - nuke plants		           -4800

 - offshore			   -3600

 - manu plants			  -16000

 - jets			           -1000

Net available			  -15400



Max panzer production with improvements == -154

Max panzer production with only panzers ==  100





Production at start of Synthetic fibers

No improvements

shields          == 1000

max MA's/turn    ==    8



With improvements

shields          == 1600

max MA's/turn    ==   14 

	23-10-2002 02:48									#35
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I think the guy who had early UU and conquered more cities therefore is also bigger, will kick your ass with normal tanks just because he is twice as big as you are

	23-10-2002 03:03									#36
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Maybe. Hasn't happened at lower than Monarch. Monarch is still open to discovery. With Germany the end game is the Modern Era. With other civs, i.e., Roman. The only way to win vs Germany is to move those legions. The real key for panzers is the setup:
1. need a good Ancient and Middle Ages
2. in industrial ages all you do is prepare for Arageddon.

Finally in late Industrial Age, when the GA kicks it, you start the unstopped steam roller. Normal tanks are not a problem because with panzers extra move, tanks can't be effective.


Normal tank-- move to A, stop on B
Panzer-- move to C, attack B x1, attack B x2
That double attack makes tanks very very weak vs panzers. It is like using tanks vs infantry, the same 1 movement differential. Except tanks are even weaker than infantry. AI always has inf at top of stack. When get down to tanks, the city is almost mine. The AI must be programmed with this, as I have never met up with large numbers of tanks.

-- PF

	23-10-2002 03:39									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Maybe. Hasn't happened at lower than Monarch. Monarch is still open to discovery. With Germany the end game is the Modern Era. With other civs, i.e., Roman. The only way to win vs Germany is to move those legions. The real key for panzers is the setup: 1. need a good Ancient and Middle Ages 2. in industrial ages all you do is prepare for Arageddon. Finally in late Industrial Age, when the GA kicks it, you start the unstopped steam roller. Normal tanks are not a problem because with panzers extra move, tanks can't be effective. Normal tank-- move to A, stop on B Panzer-- move to C, attack B x1, attack B x2 That double attack makes tanks very very weak vs panzers. It is like using tanks vs infantry, the same 1 movement differential. Except tanks are even weaker than infantry. AI always has inf at top of stack. When get down to tanks, the city is almost mine. The AI must be programmed with this, as I have never met up with large numbers of tanks. -- PF

Oh well to be honest the size of the AI doesn't matter that much, because it's AI.
I'd prefer being really big and just have tanks over being smaller nation and having panzer. That way I score more and have bigger number of tanks=faster domination. Also bigger nation gets motorized transportation earlier, if game lasts that long anyway...

Panzer is much better than tank, but my point is early UU is even better than panzer.

	23-10-2002 03:58									#38
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I have made the same point many times. Yes panzer is strong, but so what.The point about the AI as Germany beating on another AI, is not a function of panzers so much as it is a function of the empire. Which ever gets the biggest empire will beat the other. That is a function of the map mostly and the UU. If on same land mass I like the middle UU like Rider to shine as the AI is not going to do that much with early UU. If mostly water and islands, I would expect the AI with the later UU to do better (assuming the lands are equal), subject to the human snuffing one or the other out prematurely. Comapre how the human does with one civ to ai controlled one is pointless. Just because player X kicks but on the ai with civ Y, does not mean civ Y is the best civ.