18-10-2002 14:35									#1
	Why are privateers so weak? Suffering from ads?

Even against galleys privateers are likely to end up on the sea floor. Recently I increased their attack strength by 1 but they are still incapable of sinking anything on their own most of the time. If I have two patrolling together they can sink a caravel but the first one is usually on a suicide mission.

What were Firaxis thinking of?

Is there any historical precedent to suggest that privateers should suck?

	18-10-2002 14:38									#2
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No idea ... but if you want to have real fun with privateers, set them as the Barbarian naval unit.

	18-10-2002 15:37									#3
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Privateers were used to attack unescorted merchant ships. Since such ships don't exist in Civ 3 they are useless.

	18-10-2002 16:45									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A privateer is an even match for the lesser ships of it's time. It wasn't meant to go head to head with a frigate. Stack them ships of your nationality for more fun.

	18-10-2002 17:04									#5
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Drake was more than a match for the Spanish galleons he plundered. The same cannot be said for the Civ3 privateers.

	18-10-2002 17:55									#6
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Why not just fire up the editor and fix it? It's better than

	18-10-2002 18:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace Drake was more than a match for the Spanish galleons he plundered. The same cannot be said for the Civ3 privateers.

Ah, but Drake was the exception, not the rule. You don't know the names of all the failed privateers and pirates who got sunk taking on galleons.

	18-10-2002 19:29									#8
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You know, they really aren't all that weak.

Last night I sank the bulk of the English navy with privateers, including 2 ironclads (2 privateers each did the trick). I also sank several other ships.

I produced maybe 20 privateers, and did my best to consolidate them in packs of 2-4. Wooden ships didn't stand a chance. I sank frigates and galleons like mad. I probably took slightly heavier casualties than I inflicted, but not by much - and with the benifit of secrecy. I'm certainly glad I built them.

-Arrian

	18-10-2002 19:42									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I probably took slightly heavier casualties than I inflicted, but not by much - and with the benifit of secrecy. I'm certainly glad I built them. -Arrian

I wouldn't mind if the privateers are lost because of enemies taking the initiative and attacking. But if I'm going after caravels and I'm doing the attacking then for me to take slightly higher casualties than the enemy isn't good enough.

	18-10-2002 19:56									#10
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I don't usually go for naval dominance because I play on continents, and by the late modern age, I usually dominate my own continent. Wars thus end up between my continent and the other one (why are there always two continents plus one island nation?). The fact that naval battles pretty much suck, and the AI never invades (except perhaps that one longbow or elephant), and invading for me would be impractical due to corruption, by the time navies are any good they are useless.

But if I were going to use privateers I would probably stack at least 3-4 together. Since i'm usually industrious, this wouldn't be too much of a problem, as most of my cities are building wealth by the time I discover the ironclad.

	18-10-2002 20:49									#11
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down at the tip of south American France and Britain, Priviteers were used very very well in sinking the spanish ships and taking the money. I fact i think they were often payed to board the ships clean them of spanish, then sail them back to Britain or a British infantry transporter.

	18-10-2002 21:15									#12
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It is about gamebalance afterall.
You get to fight a secret war, but at a cost .
Seems like a good trade-off to me.

	19-10-2002 16:48									#13
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I understand the AI likes to hunt down and kill privateers. And privateers can be used to draw AI ships out into the open....

	20-10-2002 09:00									#14
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They don't hunt them anymore, not like they used to. Either the 1.21 or 1.29 patch fixed that. It used to be the same as with barbarians: the AI knew where they were and beelined straight for them with any spare naval unit available.

Now, if they are close by, they will go attack them, but it's not the same "moth to a flame" approach.

-Arrian

	20-10-2002 22:06									#15
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I don't often use them, but the few times I have, I obtained similar results. If you want them to be effective, build lots and keep them in "Wolf Packs". If you only build 1 or two they're a waste.

	20-10-2002 23:26									#16
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If your at war they suck. If you want to help an ally with out triggering a MPP or military alliance against you they are wonderful.

Though I don't use them too much there was one game I remember. The Germans where real big on the opposing continent, while me and Rome where still competing for domination of ours (along with the Greeks who still had quite a bit of power). Since Germany and Rome had a MPP I didn't want to go all out at war with Rome and Germany becuase I was currently building a land army to invade Rome.

Anyway Japan and France where the only ones restricting German growth (Russia and Egypt where at the top of the continent but didn't have much power) and they were the only ones who's army was as powerful as mine. Basically I knew that the romans who where being shipped accross the ocean along with the germans would crush France and possibly Japan (since they still had other cities on another island) so I had about 10-12 privateers sink 4 of their transports (all filled with rifleman and cav) and I didn't even need to go to war with anyone.

	21-10-2002 02:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 It is about gamebalance afterall. You get to fight a secret war, but at a cost . Seems like a good trade-off to me.

Yes. It would be awful to have Privateers running all over the map with impunity, sinking ships left and right with no way to exact retribution since they have hidden nationality. They're fine the way they are.

Today I was playing on Marla Singer's world map and the Zulus had a caravel blocking my exit from the Mediterranean. Since the ship was *just* outside my culture borders, I couldn't even ASK them to move. So I sent my privateer over and attacked their caravel. My privateer lost. I was mad, but I had reduced the caravel to one red bar. Then the caravel left! (Presumably to a Zulu city to heal.) I moved my frigates and ironclads to where the Zulu caravel had been to keep other ships from entereing the Mediterranean. See? Privateers have uses after all.