18-10-2002 21:00									#1
	Operation: Horse Thieves Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I would like to suggest that we continue to invest heavily in culture in the cities of San Cortez and Chiquita in order to steal Greece's source of horses either by taking over the horses tile or flipping their precious Argos. We can then sell the horses back to Greece (or they'll buy horses from one of the AIs anyway) in order to get lots of gpt as well as make Greece dependant on us.
It's not gonna be easy, but it'll be worth it.

Attached is a map of the area for reference.

Attachment: horse.jpg
This has been downloaded 138 time(s).

	18-10-2002 21:12									#2
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That's a great plan, if it works.
It might take ages to flip the tile by San Cortes cultural level.
Eventually the horse tile could flip to our territory,
if we invested in San Cortes for the long term.

Argos seems to have a high culture level by its many tiles.
To make this town flip, seems almost impossible...
Where is their capital?

	18-10-2002 21:16									#3
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Seriously, I think there's something wrong with those Greek horses...

	18-10-2002 21:17									#4
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Argos seems to have a high culture level by its many tiles. To make this town flip, seems almost impossible... Where is their capital?

Nearer than our capital is to Argos. However, after the Palace relocation flipping Argos should be a piece of cake.

	18-10-2002 21:39									#5
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Then it is indeed a great plan after the palace relocation!
We have to go through the city-flipping algorithm again,
to check through all the things we must do...

I think there is a thread about it somewhere.

	18-10-2002 22:08									#6
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There are too many to count. Here is one (though not the best).

	19-10-2002 00:34									#7
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The nice thing about pumping culture in San Cortes is that we want to do that anyway to flip the cities the Aztec seized (vicious imperialists!!! ) from the Americans (may they rest in peace). Culture does double duty, even triple duty, here.

	19-10-2002 00:46									#8
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Shiber, did you ever have a see-n-say?
THe Cow says Moo, THe Horse Says Neigh!

E_T

	19-10-2002 01:54									#9
	Re: Operation: Horse Thieves Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Shiber I would like to suggest that we continue to invest heavily in culture in the cities of San Cortez and Chiquita in order to steal Greece's source of horses either by taking over the horses tile or flipping their precious Argos.

Its a nice idea to flip that city but I don't think it is possible to steal a tile from a city when it is within their legitimate city radius and has already been absorbed by their culture.

They obviously have at least a temple or some other cultural improvement in Argos to own the horse square. Its good that it is close to us, though, so that in the advent of hostilities we could pillage it and cut them off. It might take some time to overwhelm them but its good to employ long-run strategy like this.

	19-10-2002 02:58									#10
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We can never take an inner city radius tile (the eight surounding the city), but we can take to outer city radius tiles IF we have more culture in our cit then there city.

By going over the formula (and making some guesstimates on total culture from the historygraph) linked in the above I see a dismal .7% of a chance to flip Argos at this time. More culture is needed there in a hurry. See Opperation Flip'em Off

	19-10-2002 03:05									#11
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I think that WHEN Washington flips then this operation will become far more feasible.
Washington => Horses

	19-10-2002 03:28									#12
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I'm far less than sure that we can claim that square before horses become irrelevant lol.

... and besides, man, those horses are sick. They have Mad Horse Disease.

	19-10-2002 04:16									#13
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I support this plan.

	19-10-2002 04:16									#14
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ich auch

	19-10-2002 05:24									#15
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It is a good idea. This will take awhile.

Does your plan invlove hurrying improvements?

	19-10-2002 10:07									#16
	Re: Operation: Horse Thieves Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Shiber I would like to suggest that we continue to invest heavily in culture in the cities of San Cortez and Chiquita in order to steal Greece's source of horses either by taking over the horses tile

Why, it is not Greece's only horse.

	19-10-2002 12:10									#17
	Re: Re: Operation: Horse Thieves Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by theViking Why, it is not Greece's only horse.

I'm on a computer where I can't check the updated maps, but if this is true, then what is the point? I understand that we should work to improve in each city, but....if the Greeks have another supply of horses what difference would this make?

	19-10-2002 12:11									#18
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I DO understand that ANY strategic resources we can grab from anyone else should be a priority, but what damage would it do to the Greeks if they have another source?

	19-10-2002 15:45									#19
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You're right, there's one west of Sparta. How could I have not noticed it?

	19-10-2002 16:12									#20
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Sorry Shiber, but the only way this plan will REALLY make much difference is if we have the possibility of taking both horse tiles. Maybe a war with the Greeks is in order, eh? Just kidding. Of course maybe later. But it would probably be worth it in the long run -> less for the Greeks to use for trade....

	19-10-2002 17:19									#21
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Ok, now I went through the flipping parameters...


1. The former American city, Washington will be more likely to flip than the Greek Argos.
Because there are many foreign cultured
(native American citizens) living there.
We won't gain that horse, by this flip...

2. We should try to spread fear and loathing in Los Argos, perhaps by sabotaging Greek luxury deals. If there is a civil disorder there, chances will get higher to aquire both the city and the horses. (a x2 multiplier)

3. To estimate the our possibilities of success we can also look
at capital distance and greek culturepoints relative to ours. (plays a big role as a division number )

4. garrisoned units in the greek city also have an impact. (but a lesser, as a difference number. )



I can be done by large cultural investment through the Ministers offices, and some dirty play against Greece...
We have to do some lobbying I think!

	19-10-2002 17:49									#22
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Alexander the Great looked out over the border between Greece and Apolytonia.
"What a fine land I have created," Alexander thought."
I wish there was more I could add to the glory of my empire, and to the glory of the Greeks....but, those damn Apolyton's keep me at bay. "
"How I wish they would suffer. Perhaps I should send an envoy to von Bismarck. I'm sure he'll agree that the Apolyton's are too powerful, and are a huge threat to the stability of thiis continent.
"Poor Joan," Alexander remarked to himself. "Surely she must know that she and her French compatriots are soon to be under attack."
Alexander sat down at his desk, awaiting further news of the Apolyton plans. Surely his spies would be returning any moment with information...:
but as sure as the wind blows, in ran his messengers, declaring that the Shadow Service of the Apolyton's had assassinated all his spies. "Damn!" Alexander yelled out loud. "Why don't we train our own agents to hold their ground against these elite Shadow Service agents? Surely Meshelic the Great has SOME weakness! Not to mention Ghengis Farb! Maybe if we take out Ghengis, then Meshelic will fall as well. And then we will have free reign working our espionage tactics on those damned Apolyton's! "
"My lord," spoke his Ministers, " rumours have surfaced that the Apolyton's are stealing horses from our southern provinces! Shall I send for the National Guard?"
Alexander remained silent. "No that is not necessary. Those bastards know that any theft of the King's horses will result in an assault on their precious kingdom...."
"Sire," spoke his defense minister,"what are we to do about the growing number of Apolyton knights massing along the French border? Shall we warn Joan de Arc of these obviously threatening troop movements?"
"No," Alexander replied, "Joan is a big girl. She fought in the revolution for France's sake! If she can't recognize the growing threat to her own borders, it is her own fault! I will not allow Greek blood to be shed on the part of those French barbarians! Whether the Apolyton's challenge them or not is not our problem, but the French problem!"
"And what of our horses?" asked another minister.
"Watch them carefully. We don't want any Apolyton raiding parties causing any trouble now do we?"

	19-10-2002 18:45									#23
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Good story, that should be in the jungle gazette...

	19-10-2002 19:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Sorry Shiber, but the only way this plan will REALLY make much difference is if we have the possibility of taking both horse tiles.

Sparta is very close to our borders, so naturally when we go to war with Greece, Sparta will be one of the first cities to be conquered. If by then they'll lose the horses tile near Argos then all we'll have to do is to take Sparta's horses and Greece will become unable to produce any fast offensive units (given that we attack Greece before tanks). We can concentrate a large amount of troops near Sparta and take it during the first turn of war, before Greece is able to switch production to cavalry.
They'll have the option of buying horses from another AI, Germany for instance, but Germany will choke them since:
a. There aren't many AIs with a surplus of horses.
b. Greece will need those horses during wartime so Germany will ask for a very high price for the horses.
In either case, we'll weaken Greece significantly.

To sum up, this plan will make it easier to fight the inevitable war against Greece, and since we already intend to invest in culture in this region why not build colosseums as well and take Argos too?

	19-10-2002 19:25									#25
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Well, this plan is ready for execution pretty soon.
Sort it out and bring it to Senate votation!

Oh...
So we will have to fight them in the end?
Dear banannabis! All these wars...
I'm running for UN chief negotiator.

	19-10-2002 19:35									#26
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a war against Greece. I'm just recognizing the fact that this war is inevitable, given the location of our new palace.

	19-10-2002 22:56									#27
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I also support this plan, we should build temples, but not rush build them, we need to be using the extra gold to get Military Tradition & Industrialization for our whole empire. If we get two techs first, and sell them to enough civs we'll have enough cash to rush build, and move down the tech tree fast.

	19-10-2002 22:59									#28
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Double post

	20-10-2002 01:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Good story, that should be in the jungle gazette...

I just had to throw a little spice on things...

	20-10-2002 05:09									#30
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I didn't read this whole thread, so no idea if anyone commented on this before....

What type of horse goes "Moo"?!