19-10-2002 05:29									#1
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Gentlemen-

I hate to admit this, but my elite units seem unusually ... well ... wimpy. Perhaps I'm just very, very unlucky, but over time it seems as if my elites are less battle-worthy than my veterans.

I have lost count of how many times I've seen an elite swordsmen brigade chopped down by regular spearmen, who emerge entirely unscathed -- and promoted! Subsequently my veteran swordsmen will (relatively) easily defeat the newly veteran spearmen.

This has happened far too often to be coincidence. Has anyone else seen this? Could it be that I play France, my pretty pink fencing squad is too foppish to overcome the grim Germans?

--j

	19-10-2002 05:42									#2
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No didn't notice that. Of course, sometimes a regular spearman is sheer invincible, but I tested by reloading if a elite can't do the job, the vet won't either.

	19-10-2002 05:51									#3
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It seems to vary from game to game. I have games where swords just wiped out spearmen in size 1-3 cities, other where it was a lot tougher. The elite part is not really a big factor as if the RNG is bad, they will win the extra roll of the dice anyway.

	19-10-2002 07:07									#4
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I've noticed that I sometimes have a bit too much confidence in that 1 extra hitpoint versus a regular *anything*. Maybe you've fallen into the same trap I do, thinking that "elite" means "special forces" when it actually seems to mean "well fed".

	19-10-2002 08:48									#5
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I have learned the hard way that it only mean one more roll. If the RNG is impartial and the units are more or less even or the same type, then the extra HP will likely save the day. If I have a slight edge in stats and elite, I will win, unless the RNG is bad for me.

	19-10-2002 11:21									#6
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i have noticed the same thing....when i first played civ3 i would huck anything i could when all my elites kept dying..... so frustrating......

in time i learned to attack size 1-3 cities with vets first... one needs to unlearn civ2 tricks when playing civ3......

the only problem with using vets is u dont get as many leaders......

and leaders....dont get me started... i play china, or some other militaristic civ and i whup three civs into the ground....no leaders....

then i have two archers on the board...meet two sep barbs...become elite, attack a capital...and voila...the first great leader is born and the winning archer is ALWAYS named :War4ever:

so this game is really quite bizarre.....

i stopped playing for 7 months...missed all the patches...started up about 6 weeks ago and realize the 1.29 patch changed alot of things....for the better i might add...

although i don't post much in the civ3 seciton ( i MP civ2 frequently) i really enjoy civ3 now.....

and i am a proud member of the dark side

oh and thanks for the strats..... helps an old rustic dog out !

	19-10-2002 12:00									#7
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Yes 129f did help.

	19-10-2002 17:58									#8
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I find I tend to get carried away with the whole roleplaying thing when it comes to my elite units, and throw them too recklessly into battle at the head of my assaults. If, for example, I have a stack of units closing in on a city with entrenched defenses, I know I should send a few vets in first, to soften defenses .... But then I tell myself the elites should lead the assault to inspire the troops ..... When I get in this mood, I tend to kill off more elites than I should. But then if an elite does triumph, even creates a great leader, and the city falls as swarms of vets and raw regulars follow on, it feels so right!
Sometimes sentiment trumps tactics!

	19-10-2002 20:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron I find I tend to get carried away with the whole roleplaying thing when it comes to my elite units, and throw them too recklessly into battle at the head of my assaults.

Historically, Elites don't always lead. For instance, in Roman Legions, the experienced troops stood behind the fresh recruits to "encourage" them and prevent their fleeing. Or another example, Napoleon always held back the "Old Guard" for the coupe de grace.

	19-10-2002 21:49									#10
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Sent in a 13hp Sword Army against a fortified Spear in a town. The Army had seen better days... this time it fell to the man.

(For crying out softly, some people complain of losing a 5hp unit)

	19-10-2002 23:58									#11
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Elites get to lose five rounds before dying; Veterans only four. Each round is independently determined, ipso facto Elites are better on average. However, you should try to save your Elites for Leader creation. They should be played as the aforementioned coup de grace.

In this situation, Catapults left the defender at one hitpoint and created this 1/16 opportunity with a 94% chance of combat victory. If you make this play frequently, you will inevitably generate Great Leaders.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm11/bc0230-Tojo.htm

Last edited by Zachriel on 22-10-2002 at 16:42

	20-10-2002 00:20									#12
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I think it is a matter of expectations. Elites can generate GLs. Each elite battle is therefore a potential GL. So I focus on them and get annoyed when they fall on their swords, leave them at home, use the blunt ends, etc.

	20-10-2002 01:19									#13
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I do not send in elites first unless the expectation of victory is very high as Zachriel example. One other reason is the assault mentioned. If I take the city I want the elites to have their HP intact for defending, if I can. So I will try to hold a few back. It is often situational.

	20-10-2002 06:42									#14
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In desperate situations, I will often use some of my fastmovers elites first (better retreat odds), then pulverize with vets, and the coup de grace by the remaining elites.

	20-10-2002 07:52									#15
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There you go.

	20-10-2002 08:54									#16
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I have the same (admittedly illogical) feeling about my elites. It's as if they get complacent. It just seems that they fight poorly.

The reality is that losing an elite is especially painful, and so much more frustrating than losing a normal unit.

In my experience with the game, the RNG does seem to fire off streaks of rolls, good and bad, and if you get a "bad" string, it doesn't really matter if you have 4 or 5 hp. Either way, that unit is going down.

-Arrian

	20-10-2002 11:22									#17
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So true and why I prefer to use them in as many can't lose fights as possible. Be they as first in or wait till down to 1 HP. Sometimes you must commit them and take your lumps though.

	21-10-2002 14:13									#18
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I noticed in my game today that veteran's with half of their blocks filled (in the low yellow) would do greater damage to a city than all my elite units did. I was getting rather peeved because I kept throwing horsemen at the last Babylonian capital and it was just not happening. It was only a size 4 at that time, and so it made for a frustrating half an hour of punishing it then finally breaking through. But I won it with my weaker units. Very interesting I thought.

	21-10-2002 22:22									#19
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i boosted my elites to 6hp instead of 5hp, makes them seem more worth it!

	22-10-2002 00:01									#20
	Re: Paperweight Elites Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by jubilation Gentlemen- I hate to admit this, but my elite units seem unusually ... well ... wimpy. Perhaps I'm just very, very unlucky, but over time it seems as if my elites are less battle-worthy than my veterans. --j

I know this can't really be true, but it happens everytime I play. And when I'm losing elites its almost always to severely wounded enemy units. Of course when my elites do win they limp away with 1 hp left.

I'm sure the results are statisitically accurate. Its probably that psycholigal effect were you only remember getting cheated, but kind of block out your normal results. This effect works well is astrology. If you say one correct thing the reader will tune out the 9 incorrect thing you said in addition and will think your a true genoius who's in touch with the stars.

	22-10-2002 00:18									#21
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That's it in a nutshell. You remember getting screwed, but rarely remember all those battles that went well for you.

From my last game, I remember the elite Cavalry which I lost to a spearman (granted, it was in a size 11 city) who took no damage. I also remember the 3hp Tank I lost to another spearman (size 4 city). The Tank was definitely the funniest, because it was the Tank's second combat (attempting to get him elite via the 2 wins in a row=promotion rule), and the 1st one was vs. a rifleman in the same city. He toasted the rifleman, losing 1 hp, and then lost to a spearman, inflicting only 1hp damage. Must have been the psychological effect of telling Tankers to gun down poor, practically defenseless spearmen. My unit mutinied... yeah, that's it! I laughed, and rolled over the spear with the next tank division.

-Arrian

	22-10-2002 01:59									#22
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Oh, that's not the correct response to losing a tank to a spearman. You're supposed to create a thread complaining about the combat engine on every Civ3 forum you can find!

Seriously, I do think the RNG is seriously 'streaky'. I've watched two or three veteran units die assaulting a unit that doesn't lose a hit point, then my units kill the next three units without a suffering a scratch. I don't know if I remember only the bad results, but it certainly doesn't seem as if that extra hit point that elites have buys them as much survivability as I'd like to think it does.

To be fair though, I've had a couple of games where my swordsmen armies have torn through defending pikemen like they were butter. If the AI did that to me, I'd be upset, but since I'm on the winning side, I pat myself on the back and conquer yet another AI civ.

	22-10-2002 02:32									#23
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In AU 107, sending in Legions against Muskets, I had incredibly good runs...

Jerxes is probably over at CFC complaining!! :biggrin:

	22-10-2002 02:36									#24
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Part of the phenomenon is in behavior theory - people tend to remember the exceptional cases (an elite doing better than a veteran) better than the common case.

And yes, I've also discovered that the way to generate Great Leaders is to attack with your VETERANs, and only use the elites for high-percentage mop-up attacks. Attacking with the vets is, of course, how you get more elites in the first place.

I guess it makes sense, in that an elite unit that's really good at directing the veterans to attack should be a Great Leader...

	22-10-2002 05:18									#25
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Theseus thanks for the chuckle.

	22-10-2002 08:59									#26
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You're welcome.

I tried to post this thought before, but it got screwed up:

T-hawk, I definitely espouse attacking with vets first, in order to conserve elites.

Lately however, I've been using a different strategy, especially late in the game, when GLs are less important.

For Cavs, Tanks, and MA, I now typically attack as follows (after any bombardment, if available:

1st) Elites, for their higher retreat odds and extra hp.

2nd) Starting when remaining defenders only have 2hp, I use Armies... conscripts and the equivalent are deathtraps for fastmovers.

3rd) Vets to finish off.

I get lucky with the early elite attacks anyway, and so do get some GLs.

The main point, however, is that this seems to preserve my troops better.

	22-10-2002 09:23									#27
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Here here.

	22-10-2002 22:31									#28
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quote: Originally posted by dac Seriously, I do think the RNG is seriously 'streaky'. I've watched two or three veteran units die assaulting a unit that doesn't lose a hit point, then my units kill the next three units without a suffering a scratch. I don't know if I remember only the bad results, but it certainly doesn't seem as if that extra hit point that elites have buys them as much survivability as I'd like to think it does.

Don't forget that along with the extra hit point, elites are supposed to get a combat modifier as well. Sometimes I think it's a *negative* modifier.

I think you get to the heart of my complaint. The battles are _so_ streaky that I question exactly how random the round-by-round combat really is, and I am almost starting to believe that the program decides the combats on an all-or-nothing basis like Civ I ("this spearman WILL survive this turn by God"), and fudges the round-by-round combat.

On the other hand, a factor mentioned by several other posters seems more likely: that I just notice it more when my carefully nurtured elites spill out their brief, brave young lives uselessly into the dust of some foreign land.

	22-10-2002 22:48									#29
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quote: Originally posted by jubilation Don't forget that along with the extra hit point, elites are supposed to get a combat modifier as well. Sometimes I think it's a *negative* modifier.

There are no combat modifiers.

There are only 4 differentiated aspects between elite and veteran troops: (1) elites have 5 HPs; (2) if a fast mover, elites have a higher probability of retreat; (3) elites cannot be promoted to a higher status; and (4) elites can generate GLs (assuming they haven't already done so).

Catt

	22-10-2002 23:11									#30
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Catt,

Dispenser of information, dispeller of myths. Beat me to it.

-Arrian