19-10-2002 09:18									#1
	Choose your peaceful great leaders Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The BBCs survey of the greatest ever british people has been reduced to the 10 best. These could all be used in Civ3. But who would other countries use?

English:
Isambard Kingdom Brunel
Winston Churchill
Oliver Cromwell
Charles Darwin
Diana, Princess of Wales ???
Queen Elizabeth I
John Lennon
Horatio Nelson
Isaac Newton
William Shakespeare

	19-10-2002 12:06									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They could not come up with someone a little more substancial than Diane?

	19-10-2002 13:37									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes the inclusion of Diana makes a mockery of an otherwise fine list. It also makes the list far to biased owards the present...when it otherwise wouldn't of been.

	19-10-2002 22:11									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

When list are made my polling the general populance, you get too many modern names. I think that is due to many people not having being able to find their behind with both hands. Just watch Jay Walking on the Tonight show to see what I mean. Sorry for those that do not have access to the show, but it asks every day question of random people (often on a campus) and notes the responses. Example: (This is done in LA California, where Mexico is about 120 miles south and Canada is North some hundreds of miles) What nations border the United States Of America? Ans: New Mexico? (For non Americans, New Mexico is a state).
Example: Asks to estimate where a mile is from the current location. Ans: The guys point to a spot about 1 block away.
Not exactly trick questions.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 19-10-2002 at 22:20

	19-10-2002 22:33									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Diana

Going back to your Q: I would probably say Newton.

	19-10-2002 23:34									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Either Isaac Newton or Shakespeare, for the Brits.

Anyway, a few for other nations:

Greece:
-- Pericles
-- Themistocles
-- Sophocles
-- Pythagoras
-- Democritus
-- Plato
-- Socrates
-- Herodotus
-- Aristotle
-- Archimedes (who, to his credit, had a shot at discovering calculus 1800 years before Newton)
-- Euclid

Rome:
-- Cicero
-- Horace
-- Vergil

Germany:
-- Albert Speer
-- Einstein
-- Heisenberg
-- Niels Bohr (not German, I know...)
-- Copernicus

America:
-- Thomas Jefferson
-- Thomas Paine (even though he's a Scotsman)
-- Henry Clay
-- Daniel Webster
-- John Calhoun
-- Teddy Roosevelt
-- Ted Williams ( )
-- FDR

China:
-- Confucius
-- Sun Yat-Sen
-- Zhu Yuanzhang

	19-10-2002 23:44									#7
	Support Apolyton

USA: addition options
Lincoln
Edison
Washington

	20-10-2002 00:37									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Leaders listed that I would not include in a "peaceful" leaders list.

Lincoln
Washington
Teddy Roosevelt
Winston Churchill
Horatio Nelson(Not sure, wasn't he a Naval commander? Or am I think of the wrong Nelson? Doesn't matter, he's on the original list. Duh. Me=goober)


Now, I realise that these people all did great things, but I wouldn't classify them a "peaceful" or "peacetime" Leaders. If not for their respective wars, I doubt any of these men would have been "as great" as we now think of them.


I do like having a list of names to rename my Elites that have generated a leader already, though. Why is it these guys seem to die so soon after making a leader?

	20-10-2002 01:26									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Copernicus was born in Poland, so I would remove him from Germany. That is why I left Ablert E off the American list.

	20-10-2002 01:49									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Either Isaac Newton or Shakespeare, for the Brits. Anyway, a few for other nations: Greece: -- Pericles -- Themistocles -- Sophocles -- Pythagoras -- Democritus -- Plato -- Socrates -- Herodotus -- Aristotle -- Archimedes (who, to his credit, had a shot at discovering calculus 1800 years before Newton) -- Euclid

Some More Modern Greek Leaders:

Kapodistrias
Trikoupis
Eleftherios Venizelos
Papandreou (don't kill me right-wingers:scared

	20-10-2002 05:07									#11
	Re: Choose your peaceful great leaders Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Destroyer The BBCs survey of the greatest ever british people has been reduced to the 10 best. These could all be used in Civ3. But who would other countries use? English: Isambard Kingdom Brunel Winston Churchill Oliver Cromwell Charles Darwin Diana, Princess of Wales ??? Queen Elizabeth I John Lennon Horatio Nelson Isaac Newton William Shakespeare

I know most people on this list. But who's the top dude? Was he a fairy tale legend or a real historical person? And was Oliver Cromwell really a peaceful leader? Didn't he start a civil war or two? And what about Nelson? And Lady Die a leader? Naaawwww!

	20-10-2002 06:37									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Cromwell was a member of Parliament who was partly responsible for the execution of King Charles. He also lead the Parliament's army during the Civil War against the Monarch's army. After the King's execution, Cromwell became the Lord Protector of England.

	20-10-2002 09:08									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Brunel was a railroad man (I played a LOT of Railroad Tycoon).

-Arrian

	20-10-2002 11:34									#14
	Re: Re: Choose your peaceful great leaders Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre


I know most people on this list. But who's the top dude? Was he a fairy tale legend or a real historical person?

http://www.greatbuildings.com/archi...dom_Brunel.html

Brunel was a polymath engineer/architect, with expertise in various fields- railways, bridges, ships, hydraulics.

Diana's inclusion is an affront to the other people in the list who did more with their lives than marry the heir to the throne and have a yen for self-publicising. And not be stupid enough not to wear a seatbelt.

	21-10-2002 02:53									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

A good few replys, although Im ignorant of who Confucius, Sun Yat-Sen and Zhu Yuanzhang are (hey, Im also ignorant of what Diana did too, but at least its better than Beckham)!

Most of these guys could be split as leaders who produce bonuses in happiness, production, science or culture.

I always thought it would be great if you could capture your opponents leaders, and make them work for you.

	21-10-2002 05:51									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Speaking of architects, how about Frank Lloyd Wright as another American peaceful GL? Or I.M. Pei (Chinese-born, American resident)? Or Claudius Appius (the guy who designed the Appian Way)?

	21-10-2002 05:55									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Americans:

Henry Ford
Benjamin Franklin
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney (my relative!)
Alexander Graham Bell
Martin Luther King
Harriet Tubman
Susan B. Anthony
Eleanor Roosevelt
Henry Kissinger

	22-10-2002 00:41									#18
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Traelin Americans: Alexander Graham Bell?

Erm not quite (note that I am now British for the puposes of this debate).

	22-10-2002 01:00									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If we are including architects and authors, what about musical-folk?


Russia:

Tchaikovsky
Rachmaninoff


Germany:

Bach
Brahms
Beethoven
Mozart (kind of)
Schubert
Mendelssohn


France:

Ravel


America:

Gershwin


etc, etc.

Last edited by Vercingetorix on 22-10-2002 at 01:07

	22-10-2002 01:10									#20
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Destroyer Erm not quite (note that I am now British for the puposes of this debate).

Actually I thought he was Scottish, but moved to Boston and became an American citizen. Am I wrong?

EDIT: Yeah, he became an American citizen.

"In 1882, Graham was granted American citizenship."

http://www.top-biography.com/9022-G...0Bell/life1.htm

	22-10-2002 01:38									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Bloody Jocks! (returns to English mode)...

	22-10-2002 02:07									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Traelin Americans: Henry Ford Benjamin Franklin Charles Cotesworth Pinckney (my relative!) Alexander Graham Bell Martin Luther King Harriet Tubman Susan B. Anthony Eleanor Roosevelt Henry Kissinger

Listing Kissinger as a "peaceful" leader is about the funniest thing I've read in weeks.

No offense intended, I just find it hilarious.
Kissinger != peaceful

	22-10-2002 05:26									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by ducki Listing Kissinger as a "peaceful" leader is about the funniest thing I've read in weeks. No offense intended, I just find it hilarious. Kissinger != peaceful

Yah. On the same list as Martin Luther King? No chance. This is the same Kissinger who was in power when Cambodia was bombed secretly- who 'coincidentally' was in Indonesia just before they invaded and illegally occupied East Timor. Who was in office when Pinochet's coup took place, well I could go on, but you get the drift. The man's a war criminal- and should be in the Hague along with Milosevic as a net contributor to the civilian dead of the 20th Century.

Linus Pauling or Noam Chomsky would be a better candidate. Jesse James or Al Capone would be more morally acceptable candidates. At least Capone had only a few city blocks to run...

	22-10-2002 08:55									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

Zulu (yes, even they have peaceful leaders):

Nelson Mandela
Lebo M (who wrote the Zulu songs for the musical The Lion King.)

India:

Sidharta Guatama (better known as Buddha)

China:

Confusius

	22-10-2002 09:24									#25
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Yah. On the same list as Martin Luther King? No chance. This is the same Kissinger who was in power when Cambodia was bombed secretly- who 'coincidentally' was in Indonesia just before they invaded and illegally occupied East Timor. Who was in office when Pinochet's coup took place, well I could go on, but you get the drift. The man's a war criminal- and should be in the Hague along with Milosevic as a net contributor to the civilian dead of the 20th Century. Linus Pauling or Noam Chomsky would be a better candidate. Jesse James or Al Capone would be more morally acceptable candidates. At least Capone had only a few city blocks to run...

I was just listing names of diplomats/activists/inventors off the top of my head. I'm not arguing for or against Kissinger. However, to unilaterally blame him for the doings of the Nixon admin. is a bit of a stretch. Especially since we all know Kissinger rarely concurred with Nixon. But that's OT. There are others that could be listed as well.

Americans

-- Robert Frost
-- Edgar Allan Poe

British

-- Alfred, Lord Tennyson
-- Sir Isaac Newton
-- William Shakespeare

Spanish

-- A bit of a stretch, but Chris Columbus for the Spanish (even though he was Italian)
-- Juan Ponce de Leon for the Spanish
-- Pablo Picasso

French

-- Samuel de Champlain
-- de la Salle (don't remember his first name)

Greeks

-- Chares

And since we have certain GWs associated with peaceful leaders, we should give some kind of bonus to the Civ that builds the wonder if the person was from that Civ.
(No, Magellan doesn't count, he was Portuguese I think).

Here's the list of GWs that I can think of off the top of my head that were associated with specific peaceful leaders, and that have Civs in Civ III:

-- Universal Suffrage (originally Women's Suffrage, associated with Susan B. Anthony)
-- Shakespeare's Theatre (British, associated with William Shakespeare)
-- Colossus of Rhodes (Greeks, associated with Chares)
-- Smith's Trading Company (British, associated with Adam Smith)
-- Newton's University (British, associated with Sir Isaac Newton)

Now keep in mind I'm just brainstorming. It would probably be unbalancing to give these Civs bonuses for building their GWs, especially since not all Wonders can be directly linked to one person as the inventor/builder/architect. And not all Civs have a specific GW associated with them. But oh well, it was just a random thought on my part.

	22-10-2002 13:57									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

We Belgians do not have very great leaders in our history.

Sniff....

	22-10-2002 14:50									#27
	Re: Choose your peaceful great leaders Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Destroyer The BBCs survey of the greatest ever british people has been reduced to the 10 best. These could all be used in Civ3. But who would other countries use? English: Isambard Kingdom Brunel Winston Churchill Oliver Cromwell Charles Darwin Diana, Princess of Wales ??? Queen Elizabeth I John Lennon Horatio Nelson Isaac Newton William Shakespeare

Those are not all peaceful great leaders.

For France I would say, for warmongerer great leaders:

• all the napoleonic field marshals : Lannes, Murat, Berthier, Davout, Ney, Augereau, Brune, Grouchy, Masséna, Oudinot, Soult...
  
• Du Guesclin
  
• Condé
  
• Hoche
  
• Foch
  
• Turenne
  

	22-10-2002 15:01									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by georges bonbon We Belgians do not have very great leaders in our history. Sniff....

!!!!!!!!!what!!!!!!!!!

Rubens,
Daens,
Brel,
Vercincetorix,
Mercator,
Consience,
Karel de Grote(?)
Mercx(hmm)
Eddy Wally

not all peacefull, but hey , we are a very small country

For any other Belgians around here, please do not mention Boudewijn

	22-10-2002 16:09									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by alva848 !!!!!!!!!what!!!!!!!!! Rubens, Daens, Brel, Vercincetorix, Mercator, Consience, Karel de Grote(?) Mercx(hmm) Eddy Wally not all peacefull, but hey , we are a very small country For any other Belgians around here, please do not mention Boudewijn

Well, I do not think Vercincetorix can be considered to be Belgian (nor French); belgian and french nations did not exist at that time.

	22-10-2002 18:39									#30
	peaceful leaders? Increase Your PM Length

Gandhi was a peaceful "leader". Some of these people being mentioned could only be considered peaceful because they had nothing to do with the arena of war.

I like to think Princess Di would have made a great warmonger had she been given some sort of military command