20-10-2002 07:02									#1
	Turnless Mode Manageable? Enter the AD-FREE zone

With the sometimes hundreds of units and cities you can have by the end of the game, how can turnless mode be manageable for very long?

	20-10-2002 07:35									#2
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At this time, war become less about numbers and more about position and capability. It's the normal evolution of warfare, as reality has shown us.

	20-10-2002 07:49									#3
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Yes, but what about managing the production of all those cities? Or diplomacy in the middle of a war? Or trade? Or movement of units once you've actually built them?

	20-10-2002 08:34									#4
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That's why they've added rally points and true stack commands.

	20-10-2002 09:16									#5
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I have to agree with Trip - I too have reservatinos as to how Turnless Mode will be managable....

	20-10-2002 09:43									#6
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I thought the turns were supposed to last longer as the game progresses.

	20-10-2002 12:31									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Nyl I thought the turns were supposed to last longer as the game progresses.

That's what I thought as well, that for however many units you have, you get x number of time. Or am I confused?

	20-10-2002 17:10									#8
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I'm not concerned about moving units, I'm more concerned with negotiations and the difficulties that could present in turnless. If the "clock" is running while I'm trying to negotiate, especially for peace, it could put me in a real disadvantage in that my opponent could move his units and then start a phony negotiation with me to keep me from moving mine. I'd be even worse if alliances are involved. i.e. someone starts phony negotiation w/me while other person attacks Someone may say "well, refuse contact for 20 turn".. but what if I want to end the war, then I certainly don't want to refuse contact for 20 turns.

	20-10-2002 18:23									#9
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I think Turnless mode will be the same as one in Europa Universalis. It wasn't really unmanageble...

	20-10-2002 20:58									#10
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You could also slow it down to nearly a crawl, pause it whenever you wanted to, and there weren't literally hundreds of units and cities to deal with. Civ turnless will be much more frantic than EU2, simply because they were designed differently: Civ with you having as much time as you want, EU2 working in real time.

	20-10-2002 21:32									#11
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I doubt you will be able to pause and slow down werether you want in multiplayer...

	21-10-2002 01:28									#12
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I know, I was talking about EU2.

	21-10-2002 02:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan I'm not concerned about moving units, I'm more concerned with negotiations and the difficulties that could present in turnless. If the "clock" is running while I'm trying to negotiate, especially for peace, it could put me in a real disadvantage in that my opponent could move his units and then start a phony negotiation with me to keep me from moving mine. I'd be even worse if alliances are involved. i.e. someone starts phony negotiation w/me while other person attacks Someone may say "well, refuse contact for 20 turn".. but what if I want to end the war, then I certainly don't want to refuse contact for 20 turns.

Well, I even read somewhere, that "phony negotiation" was used as a strategy and if I remember well added was "like in real life". Hm.... does not sound very much like real life to me but..... who cares, if we do not like it we do not use it. There are several other options. If I understand it well we will even be able to switch between options. Now, that would be nice. We could use turnless in the beginning, switch to a turn based on-line game later on and eventually (when we get really busy and need much time) end it as a PBEM game. We tried to accomplish this with CTP but never succeeded. If it is possible for CIV3 that would be great.

	21-10-2002 03:11									#14
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i'm expecting it to be to gameplay what anarchy is to governments!

	21-10-2002 08:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Franses Well, I even read somewhere, that "phony negotiation" was used as a strategy and if I remember well added was "like in real life". Hm.... does not sound very much like real life to me but..... who cares, if we do not like it we do not use it. There are several other options. If I understand it well we will even be able to switch between options. Now, that would be nice. We could use turnless in the beginning, switch to a turn based on-line game later on and eventually (when we get really busy and need much time) end it as a PBEM game. We tried to accomplish this with CTP but never succeeded. If it is possible for CIV3 that would be great.

To expand on this, it seems as if in "real life" the people managing the diplomatic channels would certainly be different than the people who are commanding the military. Still, it might be a fun strategy. I'm a bit concerned that it'll get abused, especially in MP military alliances vs. some poor schmuck.

	21-10-2002 09:15									#16
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obviously the more units you have, the harder it will be to control all of them and have them all do what you want them to do in time, but that is fairly realistic.

i think it is a great plus to the game, because it helps out people who have smaller armies.

but despite that it will be interesting to see what turnless games are like on huge maps (assuming lag isn't too much of a problem)

	24-10-2002 09:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan I'm not concerned about moving units, I'm more concerned with negotiations and the difficulties that could present in turnless. If the "clock" is running while I'm trying to negotiate, especially for peace, it could put me in a real disadvantage in that my opponent could move his units and then start a phony negotiation with me to keep me from moving mine. I'd be even worse if alliances are involved. i.e. someone starts phony negotiation w/me while other person attacks Someone may say "well, refuse contact for 20 turn".. but what if I want to end the war, then I certainly don't want to refuse contact for 20 turns.

I am concerned that it may be difficult to conduct "quality" diplomacy in Turnless Mode - mostly because of the lack of time. I am accustomed to making the diplomatic round every few turns; however I suspect that with TM, diplomatic decisions will be more hasty and immediate.

On the other hand, I may finally get the chance to enjoy fighting true proxy wars; I expect it might be possible to simply pay another player to wage a war against a third party. I imagine a world full of mercenaries and puppetmasters ...

I expect that there will be much more of an incentive to break trade deals now. For example, I may urge a potential ally to break his existing trade deal with another player in order to furnish me with the resource I desire. Of course, that might be enough of a reason to start a war.

With chat and voice functionality available, I suppose diplomacy might actually take less time now. Players may informally strike bargains via chat and then simply call up the offical diplomacy screens to seal the deal. Another possibility is to have a small diplomacy dashboard or screen in which current offers remain "on the table", to be accepted, negotiated, or rejected; that way, diplomacy is an ongoing activity rather than something done only at a discrete time.

In the Turnless Mode, how long will deals last? Is there a time-based equivalent to 20 turns? Can deals be specified in terms of minutes?

My biggest question, though, is: how long will a game last? My current games sometimes last for several weeks or even months. Will I now have to remain glued to the computer, without break, for several hours? I can't imagine putting the game on hold every time someone needs to take a break.

	24-10-2002 16:02									#18
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With voice chat you can do diplomacy while playing the game... interesting.... That is if your brain can multitask.

	24-10-2002 16:12									#19
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It might only run at 1MhZ, but it can do a million things at once

quote: If I understand it well we will even be able to switch between options. Now, that would be nice. We could use turnless in the beginning, switch to a turn based on-line game later on and eventually (when we get really busy and need much time) end it as a PBEM game.

Are you sure about this???? I don't think this is possible. Maybe from turn-based to PBEM , but not from turnless to PBEM

	25-10-2002 00:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone With voice chat you can do diplomacy while playing the game... interesting.... That is if your brain can multitask.

quote: It might only run at 1MhZ, but it can do a million things at once

Certainly if your brain wasnt multitasking ud be dead!

Imagine not ebing able to breathe while you were adding 1+1 in your head, or not being able to alert danger while ur driving and listening to radio

	25-10-2002 11:25									#21
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Turnless mode seems to defeat the whole point of playing a TBS game.

But maybe I'm just being the nay-sayer here.

	25-10-2002 11:30									#22
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It still works in a TBS sort of way, only sped up. After all, few people have large 5 hour blocks of time to dedicate to playing a game of civ.

	25-10-2002 22:39									#23
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It'll be managable (i tried it and so far it is).. but you need to depent HEAVILY on governors, auto-improve (workers.. irrigate, etc. forgot what its called), stacking, etc....

and above all.. don't get into diplomatic discussions... I got into one and had built 5 spearmen in the meantime...