20-10-2002 09:50									#31
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quote: Which is why I said 'Generally'.

You gotta admit, though, that I'm one of the more consistent people around

	20-10-2002 09:53									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Isn't verified. I've also heard it was Marlowe that wrote the plays.

There is certainly a strong circumstantial case. At any rate, there is no evidence it was the Stratford grain merchant other than the fact his name was William Shakespeare. Nothing else about his life makes sense.

Marlowe makes more sense, but the plays do not have his authorial "thumbprint." While a few plays attributed to Shakespeare may be of other authors, like Marlowe, the vast majority, and certainly the great tragedies, are clearly the work of one author, and they do not mesh with Marlowe's style.

De Vere makes the most sense of any of the possibilities, IMO. His personal Bible certainly speaks a great deal...

	20-10-2002 09:53									#33
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I'm a bit surprised Queen Victoria wasn't on the list. At least over the bridge building guy, or Princess Di.
At least Elizabeth I was.

	20-10-2002 09:55									#34
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Henry II seems to me to be of great importance as well, but too many monarchs would be a drag.

	20-10-2002 09:56									#35
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No one has written as well as Shakespeare in the English language and the guy in second place is not close.

My quick take on the top ten without looking includes

Cromwell, Elizabeth, Drake, Churchill, Lennon, Henry VIII, King Arthur and Robin Hood. Shakespeare and Dickens.

	20-10-2002 09:56									#36
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Consistently bad, yes .

	20-10-2002 09:56									#37
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Fictional Britons don't count, jimmy.

	20-10-2002 09:58									#38
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quote: Consistently bad, yes

I meant logically consistent, doofus

	20-10-2002 09:59									#39
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"Oliver Cromwell, a prime mover in the execution of King Charles I and later Lord Protector during the short British republic in the seventeenth century. "

Wow, I had now idea Brits were so fond of theocratic dictators who carried out genocide.

	20-10-2002 10:00									#40
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Boris Godunov is just a "Front" for Mr. Big so the "Homeboys" won't know he appreciates western culture'

	20-10-2002 10:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Fictional Britons don't count, jimmy.

Why?

	20-10-2002 10:02									#42
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Besides, proof that any of my nominations are fictional. Otherwise, shut up.

	20-10-2002 10:05									#43
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Diana's only on there cause she died recently... in twenty years, she would barely make the top 50...

	20-10-2002 10:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Besides, proof that any of my nominations are fictional. Otherwise, shut up.

Doesn't work that way, as proof must be provided they DID exist. There is no such evidence for Robin Hood.

	20-10-2002 10:14									#45
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Prove that I'm not God.

Oh wait, you can't, so I must be God

	20-10-2002 10:15									#46
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There were hundreds of bandits known as Robin Hood to choose from.

"Lythe and listin, gentilmen,
That be of frebore blode;
I shall you tel of a gode yeman,
His name was Robyn Hode."

Given the nature of his work and the time it would be passing strange to have detailed written records but we have bard's tales and the oral histories of the celtic remnants.

	20-10-2002 10:15									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Prove that I'm not God. Oh wait, you can't, so I must be God

While terrifying in its example, this illustrates jimmy's illogic perfectly.

	20-10-2002 10:17									#48
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There is some evidence of a Robin Hood and King Arthur existing in one form or another actually. Arthur I believe was an old Celtic king who fought off a Saxon invasion.

	20-10-2002 10:17									#49
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The first Robin Hood tales were in the 14th century, and there's nothing linking them to any real person (many groups have tried, believe me) any moreso than, say, the Iliad would prove the existence of Zeus or Athena.

Certainly the Robin Hood of legend that you credit as being so great was nowhere near even the original ballad incarnation of RH, who was a far less noble and mythic figure. So in that sense, the Robin Hood commonly known around the world is indeed a work of fiction. Trying to say he's a real person based on this would be like me putting J. Gatsby on the list of greatest Americans because he happened to be based on a real person.

	20-10-2002 10:18									#50
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quote: While terrifying in its example

Isn't it though?

	20-10-2002 10:24									#51
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But for me you'd be discussing Thatcher so take it for what its worth.

	21-10-2002 13:09									#52
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Isembard Kingdom Brunel, designed the longest suspension bridge in the world at the time, and the worlds first propeller driven ocean liner and 25 railway lines.

He is at least as deserving as the others on the short list

	21-10-2002 13:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Cretin!

What does the Canadian prime minister have to do with it?

	21-10-2002 13:50									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: More to the point of the list...the William Shakespeare of Stratford-on-Avon, the one in all the paintings, didn't write the damn plays anyway. It was Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford. He should be the one on the list, not the illiterate grain merchant. Isn't verified. I've also heard it was Marlowe that wrote the plays. quote: I think that's become the Apolyton standard of being sane on an issue: For the most part, yes . Generally the position opposite to Floyd is the sane one. Apolyton Rule 1224.45 (a)(5)

In an Literature course I took years back, the professor insisted that Shakespeare did indeed write the plays.

He also insisted that Shakespeare plagarized like hell from others, particularly Marlowe.

	21-10-2002 13:59									#55
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Cromwell (well, the memory of what he did and how he did it) had great influence on how the military was set up in the Constitution -- they wanted to make damn sure that another Cromwell couldn't rise here.

	21-10-2002 14:00									#56
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Isambard Kingdom Brunel is completely justified........as anyone who knows anything about Britain will testify. I also can't believe someone questioned the inclusion of Cromwell.

I am ambivalent about the inclusion of Lennon; on balance it is probably fair.

Di/David Beckham, well I guess there may be a case for experts picking the shortlist before people vote.

No Adam Smith!

	21-10-2002 14:12									#57
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Apart from the two mentioned in the thread title, the others are there on merit.

Saw the first hour of the top 100 how last night. Have to say some choices were really strange. even if admittedly it's difficult to define greatness, and where to finally draw the line. But I mean.. Johnny Rotten ?!?!?

Personally I wouldn't be likely to even consider any music artiste, writer, sports-person. Sure they can be great within their field, but the field they are in doesn't compare in greatness to other areas.

	21-10-2002 14:13									#58
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My two cents:

My readings of Marlowe pale compared to my reading of Shakespeare and earlier works, but I wouldn't be surprised if Marlowe actually had a significant influence. He died fairly early on in Shakespeare's career (by 1593 Shakespeare published The Comedy of Errors, Titus Andronicus, The Taming of the Shrew, Henry VI, 1,2,3 and Richard III). I'm not as well versed in these, so I couldn't make a textual comparison. My only basis I have to compare to Marlowe is Faustus, which I consider far too steeped in the vein of late Christian literature to really belong with Shakespearian works. A better person to call a literary contemporary to Marlowe would be, based on my limited readings Edmund Spenser, who's Faerie Queene was one of the last examples of heavily symbolic, early Protestant lit. Shakespeare, at least from all the plays that I've read, rarely touches upon Christianity and the Reformation as much as his contemporaries...

As to the identity of Mr. Shakespeare, I thought the latest consensus was that he was an English Nobleman whose pen name was Shakespeare. I'm surprised with the reliability of records back then that no researcher has been able to definitively find who was writing and publishing the plays...

P.S.

quote: No Adam Smith!

Because he's a Scotsman.

P.P.S.

How about Watt? Is he on there? (I'm too lazy to read)

	21-10-2002 14:21									#59
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I thought it was allegedly Bacon that wrote some of the plays.

	21-10-2002 14:27									#60
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Timexwatch- as they are allowing Irishmen in the poll being a scotsman does not disqualify you.

The poll is a abou Great britons not Great Englishmen