21-10-2002 14:47									#61
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The first 7 were good choices.

The last 3...

	21-10-2002 17:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch As to the identity of Mr. Shakespeare, I thought the latest consensus was that he was an English Nobleman whose pen name was Shakespeare. I'm surprised with the reliability of records back then that no researcher has been able to definitively find who was writing and publishing the plays...

I wasn't aware there was any great mystery obout Shakespeare. Certainly they seemed confident enough at the museum in Stratford Upon Avon when I was there.


I believe you'll find Watt if you do a page search on the top 100.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/progra...tons/list.shtml

	21-10-2002 18:10									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Gary I wasn't aware there was any great mystery obout Shakespeare. Certainly they seemed confident enough at the museum in Stratford Upon Avon when I was there. I believe you'll find Watt if you do a page search on the top 100. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/progra...tons/list.shtml

Thanks. Five am is a bit late to be reading a list

As to the bard's identity: Every time I have to study Shakespeare, there's always a long discussion on who he might have been. What sort of evidence does the museum provide?

	21-10-2002 18:14									#64
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Been a while since I was there, and how much do you take in at a museum But letters from him if I recall correctly. His will, who he left what to. Other legal documents. The house at the side of the museum is supposed to be the family house, first owned by his father. Extended here and there. That sort of thing. I think there was a chart showing family tree as well, but, as a visitor, can't be sure what evidence contributed to it's creation. You should pop over and have a look sometime

Or as an afterthought, I'd have thought an attraction like that would have had a website somewhere.

Last edited by Gary on 21-10-2002 at 18:48

	21-10-2002 21:25									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Gary I believe you'll find Watt if you do a page search on the top 100. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/progra...tons/list.shtml[/FONT][/SIZE]

All I found was James Watt, where's Watt Tyler?

	21-10-2002 21:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk In an Literature course I took years back, the professor insisted that Shakespeare did indeed write the plays. He also insisted that Shakespeare plagarized like hell from others, particularly Marlowe.

An overwhelming number of Shakespeare scholars and performers believe otherwise, from what I understand. Among the proponents of the Edward de Vere theory are the late greats John Barrymore, Laurence Olivier and John Gielgud.

quote: As to the identity of Mr. Shakespeare, I thought the latest consensus was that he was an English Nobleman whose pen name was Shakespeare. I'm surprised with the reliability of records back then that no researcher has been able to definitively find who was writing and publishing the plays...

The problem with there being any records lies in the first sentence. If the author were indeed a nobleman, he would do his damndest to conceal his identity as the playwright. It would have been scandalous for a member of the court to be a writer. Prior to the nineteenth century, all artists, be they painters, musicians or authors, were considered of servant status. Someone in de Vere's position would certainly have had to keep his identity secret so as not inspire the loathing of his peers and a loss of favor from the Queen.

Interestingly enough, de Vere's family crest is the image of a lion brandishing a spear, and his nickname around the court was "spear shaker."

quote: I wasn't aware there was any great mystery obout Shakespeare. Certainly they seemed confident enough at the museum in Stratford Upon Avon when I was there.

Of course they seem confident--they are protecting a tourist industry worth millions. Were it to be definitively proven the William Shakespeare of Stratford was indeed nothing but a grain merchant, the blow would probably be staggering to the town. They will fight desperately to keep the myth going, as they have a vested interest in doing so. It's difficult to blame them.

	21-10-2002 21:54									#67
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Well, I'm no scholar of Shakespeare, but seems unlikely to me that such a prolific writer of plays wouldn't be well known at the time. you sure this ain't just a conspiracy theory that caught on ?

	21-10-2002 22:02									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Well, I'm no scholar of Shakespeare, but seems unlikely to me that such a prolific writer of plays wouldn't be well known at the time. you sure this ain't just a conspiracy theory that caught on ?

The evidence is circumstantial, which is why there is still a raging debate, but I find it pretty convincing. There is certainly more evidence pointing to de Vere than to Shakespeare of Stratford, since the only thin he has going for him is the name. Nothing else makes sense for him to be the author, especially the fact that he would have been barely literate, given the education he received, and had never set foot outside of England. How would a man who knew nothing of a royal court and never visited anyplace more exotic than London be able to write Two Gentlemen of Verona, The Merchant of Venice, The Taming of the Shrew, etc.? However, de Vere was a known traveller and had spent much time in the locations where Shakespeare's plays are set, especially Italy.

	21-10-2002 23:40									#69
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:gasp: How can you not like shakespeare and the beatles?

	22-10-2002 00:43									#70
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Out of those, Darwin is the greatest, although it's possible he stole the idea from Alfred Russell Wallace.

Newton is also a good choice, but his work was more grounded on previous work.

Diana. Oh dear.

	22-10-2002 01:08									#71
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Newton also stole from that German guy...don't remember his name...didn't he?

EDIT: Remembered...Leibnitz, wasn't it?

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 22-10-2002 at 01:13

	22-10-2002 01:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Isembard Kingdom Brunel, designed the longest suspension bridge in the world at the time, and the worlds first propeller driven ocean liner and 25 railway lines. He is at least as deserving as the others on the short list

Exactly. Brunel's engineering work was the most advanced or among the most advanced in the world in his time, and revolutionized transport and commerce in the UK.

	22-10-2002 01:42									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Newton also stole from that German guy...don't remember his name...didn't he? EDIT: Remembered...Leibnitz, wasn't it?

It wasn't stolen. Calculus was independently developed.

	22-10-2002 02:50									#74
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Within days, IIRC.

	22-10-2002 03:31									#75
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Queen Elizabeth I - English, fair enough though; did a good job as monarchs go.

Winston Churchill - English, a little weird. Good rabble rouser though, fair enough.

Charles Darwin - English, great guy, superb choice, visionary.

Horatio Nelson - English, great guy, pretty much won the war against Napoleon by the rather... suicidal strategy employed at Trafalgar.

Oliver Cromwell - English and.... hmmmmmm

Isaac Newton - English, very smart man. Utter *****, but very smart.

William Shakespeare - English, good enough writer. Overrated.

John Lennon - English, good singer, good songwriter but a bit of a *** all things considered.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel - English, hmmm... well he was a good enough engineer. He built a lot of bridges, a lot of tunnels. He invented the 'tunnelling shield' and is utterly unworthy of being a

Princess Diana - English, well **** me. No... no, I guess she didn't. A fair nunber of other people though it must be said. A real peice of work who's notable quotes include "I don't even know how to use a parking meter, let alone a phone box". One of the greatest Britons of ALL TIME?!??!? HER????!?!?

But in case you haven't been keeping track of the ethnicities of the candidates so far I'll recap. In Great Britain there are four nationalities - English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish / Northern Irish.

Candidates from Northern Ireland - 0
Candidates from Wales - 0
Candidates from Scotland - 0
Candidates from England - 10

Now I'm not suggesting this is a little off at all, lord no, heaven forfend.

I'm sure no one you know watches a television. No... me I never touch the thing. Of course, one could argue that... maybe... just maybe the guy who invented the thing might deserve a little mention. Or maybe the guy who invented penicillin. Or the guy who invented the telephone.

No of course not! No one uses those crazy Scottish thing. Hell we don't even go north of Birmingham. No no no. Damn scruffy northerners. You can't trust them, you know. Liverpudlians and the damn Scots they're all the same. Whingeing lay abouts who have never done anything for anyone.

Oh what we need ONE of the scruffs? Oh all right we'll have that termite chappy. Yes, yes, Lenin, that's the one.


Now ... I realise that there was a very careful consideration made of all the candidates. That many judges pondered and fretted over the problem until they were almost reduced to tears. That it was one of the hardest decisions they'd ever had to make.

But please... please tell me, cause I want to know. Who in the name of GOD would seriously that prissy little ex-wife of dumbo, the prince of wales, above John Logie Baird, Alexander Graham Bell, Robert Burns or Alexander Fleming.

	22-10-2002 05:14									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "Engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who designed the Clifton Bridge in Bristol, western England. " Whoopdee-friggin-doo.

Ever been there? No? Well shut up, then.

	22-10-2002 05:14									#77
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Look - it's THAT good:

<----

	22-10-2002 05:18									#78
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We also seem to be somewhat forgetting Brunel's contribution towards the development of iron-clad (yes, ironclad, that's a Civ unit), vessels, which laid the foundation of Britain's 19th century naval supremacy.

And he had a really cool name.

	22-10-2002 07:33									#79
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Cromwell (well, the memory of what he did and how he did it) had great influence on how the military was set up in the Constitution -- they wanted to make damn sure that another Cromwell couldn't rise here.

No doubt he was influential, but this poll was on the greatest Britons, not the most influential ones.

	22-10-2002 12:16									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba Queen Elizabeth I - English, fair enough though; did a good job as monarchs go. Winston Churchill - English, a little weird. Good rabble rouser though, fair enough. Charles Darwin - English, great guy, superb choice, visionary. Horatio Nelson - English, great guy, pretty much won the war against Napoleon by the rather... suicidal strategy employed at Trafalgar. Oliver Cromwell - English and.... hmmmmmm Isaac Newton - English, very smart man. Utter *****, but very smart. William Shakespeare - English, good enough writer. Overrated. John Lennon - English, good singer, good songwriter but a bit of a *** all things considered. Isambard Kingdom Brunel - English, hmmm... well he was a good enough engineer. He built a lot of bridges, a lot of tunnels. He invented the 'tunnelling shield' and is utterly unworthy of being a Princess Diana - English, well **** me. No... no, I guess she didn't. A fair nunber of other people though it must be said. A real peice of work who's notable quotes include "I don't even know how to use a parking meter, let alone a phone box". One of the greatest Britons of ALL TIME?!??!? HER????!?!? But in case you haven't been keeping track of the ethnicities of the candidates so far I'll recap. In Great Britain there are four nationalities - English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish / Northern Irish. Candidates from Northern Ireland - 0 Candidates from Wales - 0 Candidates from Scotland - 0 Candidates from England - 10 Now I'm not suggesting this is a little off at all, lord no, heaven forfend. I'm sure no one you know watches a television. No... me I never touch the thing. Of course, one could argue that... maybe... just maybe the guy who invented the thing might deserve a little mention. Or maybe the guy who invented penicillin. Or the guy who invented the telephone. No of course not! No one uses those crazy Scottish thing. Hell we don't even go north of Birmingham. No no no. Damn scruffy northerners. You can't trust them, you know. Liverpudlians and the damn Scots they're all the same. Whingeing lay abouts who have never done anything for anyone. Oh what we need ONE of the scruffs? Oh all right we'll have that termite chappy. Yes, yes, Lenin, that's the one. Now ... I realise that there was a very careful consideration made of all the candidates. That many judges pondered and fretted over the problem until they were almost reduced to tears. That it was one of the hardest decisions they'd ever had to make. But please... please tell me, cause I want to know. Who in the name of GOD would seriously that prissy little ex-wife of dumbo, the prince of wales, above John Logie Baird, Alexander Graham Bell, Robert Burns or Alexander Fleming.

Some of the scots you mention were in the top 100.

They just didn't make the top 10.

I wouldof course have any of people you mention above Diana. but then I would put myself above Diana.

It wasn't dedided by judges it was deceided by a phone poll

	22-10-2002 13:46									#81
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"It wasn't dedided by judges it was deceided by a phone poll"

Which does surprise me...I would have thought the shallow proles in this country would have stuck more soap stars, footballers and talentless pretty boy pop stars in the top 20...

Still...Diana???

"And he had a really cool name."

And a very big hat...

Also Bob Godfrey got the '75 Oscar for his 30 minute animation, "GREAT - Isembard Kingdom Brunel". Which isn't shown often enough, in my book.

I was pleasantly surprised both Owain Glyndwr and Lloyd George were as high up as they were (especially Glyndwr)...restored my faith skightly...but...DIANA???

	22-10-2002 15:25									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi No doubt he was influential, but this poll was on the greatest Britons, not the most influential ones.

IMO you have to be fairly great to take a major part in winning a civil war, to preside of the removal of the monarchy and to then run the country for years.

Sadly the idiots brought back the parasites after Cromwell died.

	22-10-2002 18:18									#83
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Of the top ten I'd definately pick Darwin.

If anyone missed the top 100 list, it's available in alphabetical order here.

Some interesting choices in that one, my reactions ranging from Aaargh! at Enoch Powell to Really? Awesome! at John Peel.

	22-10-2002 18:28									#84
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quote: And a very big hat...

Yes, of course the hat alone makes him No.1 greatest.

	22-10-2002 20:54									#85
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Hm. I think one of those dudes who discovered the double helix structure of DNA's pretty damn great. Name's Francis Crick, I believe.

	22-10-2002 22:40									#86
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Re: Lennon & P. Diana

Shameless pandering to the masses.
Those two don't rate great let alone greatest.

	22-10-2002 22:49									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Re: Lennon & P. Diana Shameless pandering to the masses. Those two don't rate great let alone greatest.

Um, it was, I believe, a poll OF the masses, so I don't know if it could be called pandering...

	22-10-2002 22:58									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Um, it was, I believe, a poll OF the masses, so I don't know if it could be called pandering...

It was a phone poll, how many names/options do you think they give someone over the phone? I bet 20 tops.
I think they wanted them in for headline value, knowing
they would make the list, thence pandering IMHO.

	22-10-2002 23:00									#89
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Considering the list had 100 names, I wager they simply asked them to provide a name and compiled the names most commonly given.

	23-10-2002 00:29									#90
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The original list was compiled by a totally free "most nominations" process, and certainly differed well from any list any "experts" would have put together. Several way Politically Incorrect entires, like the aforementioned Powell, John Lyddon, etc., plus very few artists and classical composers.