21-10-2002 01:37									#1
	Machiavelli Institute: Mutual Protection Pacts Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Considering the current rate of tech advancement we can expect to learn Nationalism perhaps during this term. As you all know, with Nationalism come Mutual Protection Pacts.
I would like to ask the nice people of Apolytonia: what is your approach towards MPPs? Do you find that they could be useful sometimes, or would you rather keep away from MPPs at all cause?
Here are some interesting points for discussion to begin with:

• Can MPPs be useful?
  
• If a civilization such as Germany offers to sign an MPP (which IIRC lasts 20 turns) for two industrial age techs, should we take it?
  
• I find it thoughtful that the same tech that enables such a dangerous diplomatic action also provides cheap and available defenders (riflemen).
  Is it really that bad to sign an MPP or do you rather think that with riflemen and a rapid response team of cavalries we can defend our borders successfully should we enter an unexpected war?
  

	21-10-2002 01:44									#2
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MPPs are most useful in the following two cases:

1. Form an MPP with a small and vulnerable civ on the other side of a larger opponent. If the large opponent attacks the small civ, you are given a free war on the larger civ and he has his offensive forces concentrated away from you.

2. You want to go to war with a civ and you think that you can wipe him out in a protracted war. However, you are concerned that he will draw in allies against you should you go to war with him.... Solution: form MPPs with several of his neighbors and get him to declare war on you (preferably through the use of espionage).

Otherwise, I have found few uses for MPPs (unless you REALLY need cash and there's a civ willing to pay you big bucks for one).

	21-10-2002 01:46									#3
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Of course sign one with Germany. Not many Civs can defeat Germany right now and we share a fairly long border with them.

	21-10-2002 02:11									#4
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What about if the deal was with France? The prize remains the same: two industrial age techs (this is a hypothetical situation, I'm not actually expecting France to be on the leading edge of technology in the next era). In that case it's effectively a bet: we bet our ability to defend our borders against a surprise attack against two industrial age techs. Is the bet worth it then?
My answer would be yes.

	21-10-2002 03:48									#5
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I think a MPP with Germany could be a good decision for us. It's true that our border with them is long.

I usually see the MPP as beneficial, only if the other nation you sign with you believe you can trust.

But can't you get a black mark if you enter into a war that you really can't follow through on for your ally and have to drop out? I doubt this would happen to us as we are very powerful, BUT just for questions sake?

MPP's are good things, ah yes

	21-10-2002 07:56									#6
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As I understand them, MPPs compel you, basically, to declare wars by drawing you into any conflict a partner stirs up.
If we signed one with Germany, and then Germany declared war on, for example, the Aztecs, would we have to go to war against the Aztecs (assuming the Aztecs counterattaced by way of defense)?. If so, then we'd be hostage to Germany's good behavior (and we all know Bismark cannot be trusted to stay out of war for long). I realize that one can get away with a basically token military effort, if one chooses (though a token effort is expected), and still be honoring the MPP. But we'd still be at war, accumulating war weariness. And any outstanding trades we had with those we went to war with would be severed, severely impairing our reputation.
Is this right?

	21-10-2002 08:42									#7
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You are right RB, thats why I really dislike MPP, but if the price was right and with the right people I could see one. However sucha decision can't really me made until we see what the situation is later. I could see on ewith germany since with them as an ally we get free reign to do what we desire.
Aggie

	21-10-2002 11:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron ... If we signed one with Germany, and then Germany declared war on, for example, the Aztecs, would we have to go to war against the Aztecs ... Is this right?

What a wonderful excuse to annex those old American cities...

Mss

	21-10-2002 11:15									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie .... I could see on ewith germany since with them as an ally we get free reign to do what we desire.

Yes, but on the other hand, signing a MMP with such a blood thirsty civ?... You know he is chomping on the bit, just waiting, to... well.... pounce on someone. He is the one of the most unstable civs... He would love one. I would not be suprised if old Bismark will just turn around and pick a fight.

If that is the case, how is this for an idea...

lets pick a fight with france right after the MPP with Germany, crush france and then turn around and pick a fight with either the aztecs or the english. I'd perfer the english as we would be in a better position to get to them first. We can then annex aztec occupied america. Not granting germany a ROP will eat up the German unit moves being one step behind the next oppurtunity. We must have good alternate routes for our troops to travel. We have to keep all wars ocillating maximum of 5-7 turns of war with 5-10 turns peace.
Mss

	21-10-2002 11:19									#10
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If you really want to mix it up, sign a MPP with Babalon, Rome or Russia. That will get us mixed up in Anabanana Minor....

Rome will become an issue, but I have a feeling Russia will be a bigger problem.
MPPing a way to prune Russia will be good. I would like to see us nurture babylon at russia's (or rome's) expense.

Mss

	21-10-2002 11:20									#11
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MPPs are Russian roulette with the Empire.

The problem is you never know what other MPPs are signed between AIs 1 or 2 turns from now.

Sign with Germany. Bismark attacks the Aztecs (Bismark is very volatile). We could find ourselves at war with 2, 3 or 5 powers within 3 or 4 turns. That's not quite a worst case, but it is very possible.

/Edit. I never sign them.

	21-10-2002 11:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron As I understand them, MPPs compel you, basically, to declare wars by drawing you into any conflict a partner stirs up.

Not quite right. The enemy has to attack your MPP partner in his territory. Maybe in neutral territory as well, been a long while since I was in one (MPP agreement).

At which point you declare war. No choice is given.

	21-10-2002 11:25									#13
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Yeah compelled as in...

"You just declared war"...



Mss

	21-10-2002 21:55									#14
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We should only sign an MPP if we are comitted to being a military/conquest civ, and we're OK with switching to a Communist or Monarchist government in the midst of the long world war that we'd be dragged into.

For the duration of the pact we cannot escape from war unless our enemy is destroyed.

I never get into these pacts myself because I cannot control the ending of a war. If I were to fight a small power that could be conquered in less than 20 turns, I would just attack it myself or bring in an ally.

MPP are really geared towards protection -- a discouragement to other nations to attack you. But if your partner is militeristic or easy prey, be prepared to be forced into a war you didn't plan on, were ill-prepared to fight, and unable to stop.

--Togas

	21-10-2002 22:01									#15
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I am flat out against MPP's

I never use them, they are a sign of weakness, nothing more. Germany should be the last person we want to sign with as well. Rest assured that they will go knocking on someones door and draw us into a war we do not wish.

All MPP's do is remove our ability to choose who we fight when. Especially when signed with an aggressive Civ.

	21-10-2002 23:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx .... All MPP's do is remove our ability to choose who we fight when. Especially when signed with an aggressive Civ.

I agree totaly. The only way it would work is if we instigate all the agression (of our choosing) to a point that the MPPed civ would be discouraged from entering into another conflict of their own. This is the wrong time for us to do that.. for sure...
Mss

	21-10-2002 23:31									#17
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Unortho,

This is not necessarily the case. MPPs can be used in a very limited context (as I cited above) to serve as a check on the aggression of an AI power (by alligning ourselves with his smaller neighbor). However, I will agree that this is one of only a few very limited cases where I typically agree to an MPP.

	21-10-2002 23:34									#18
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I'm thinking the best use of MPPs given our situtation is that it generally improves relations with that coutnry allowing us to get better deals buying and selling techs.
If we are still generally buying techs when Nationalism is discovered, I sugest we'd form a MPP with a most common tech trading partners. (Greece and/or Germany)

Germany though is agressive. While signing an MPP with them ensures they won't attack us, it also ensures that we will get involved in wars with England, the Aztecs, and Greece.

Assuming we fully annex France, if one of the civs in the southwest wipes out the other two, I'd also sugest MPPing with that nation if they are willing to pay us GPT to do so. That will ensure a peaceful boarder there with minimumal risk of being brought into another war.

	22-10-2002 01:34									#19
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I've once played a game as the Greecs. In that game my main neighbours were the Aztecs and the Germans. I wasn't a superpower and the Aztecs were specially unfriendly against me. I signed a MPP with the germans just before the Aztecs declare a long war to me. The germans were a very loyal allied along this time. Thanks to this I was able to finally beat the Aztecs, and later, win the game.

In our case, i think we could be in a similar situation if the Romans or the Russians become a superpower. In this case (and only in this case !) I would sign a MPP with the Germans.

	22-10-2002 03:05									#20
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One of the advantages of annexing France is that they'll be no way the Babs, Romans, or Russians could get Super Power Status unless they try an overseas expansion. (We'd be in the way of them expanding north.)

We also increase the odds of an annexation of Babylon to Rome and/or Russia. Either concurrently with or shortly after another war should break out between Russia and Rome that ends with one of them being supreme in that section of the world.

Assuming we don't fight any other wars after France (Ha!):

Germany is bound to evenually annex most (or all) of England.

The Aztecs are bound to evenually annex the scattered Persian provinces in their territory.

Germany and the Aztecs will fight a major war that evenually Germany gets the upper hand in. (This enlarged Germany would be big enough to be a rival super power.)

Assuming we go after England next after France: We need to annex all of England. If we only get annex the southern half of it and declare peace, Germany invades northern England during a period we can't redeclare war with England without a rep hit and annexes it.

	22-10-2002 08:02									#21
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How much of the spoils would we really want to divide up with the Germans is my question? I mean, whatever makes the Germans stronger could realistically cause us more problems. Anyone remember the Soviet Union-United States after WWII? Friendly enough during the war, but once over, those relations pretty much fizzled out you could say...

I wouldn't want with the Germans. They would be a strong ally, but...it's iffy, you know?

	22-10-2002 08:03									#22
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To support my previous statement a little more, the whole of eastern Europe was basically annexed by the Soviets, with little regard to what the people wanted. If persay the Germans did this in England (during our game) then who knows, a stronger Germany could lead to several headaches.

	22-10-2002 17:28									#23
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I rarely sign MPPs.
Sometimes I feel sorry for the AIs so i sign an MPP with one or two of them. Then I declare war on an AI they cant possibly handle, they get annihlated, I steamroll into their former lands, get their land, get whom I declared war on's land.
But Apolyton woulnd't be in its right mind signing an MPP. It's just plain dumb. (Although a war on Aztec with Germany would be a nice way to get those American cities wile germany takes care of the rest.)