21-10-2002 08:41									#1
	So, I've been thinking - Apoc's gamble Enter the AD-FREE zone

Shortly after starting the Area 25 thread, I went to the gym. I get incredibly bored at the gym, especially when there is nothing on TV, so I just thought about the technology sitution.

Astronomy was researched, what? 20, 25 turns ago? Someone is probably going to get Navigation in the next turnchat or so. MWIA might want to stop the chat right there in case someone does have it. There is no sense in researching it because it will already be researched, btw.

Here is where the problem comes in. Navigation is an expensive tech. I think Reddwag has allocated only 400 for trades. Nav will cost us at least 600 unless we work in some resources or luxury, which we probably won't be able to. I believe we should buy it for whatever the cost. Maybe we can then sell it to Greece, maybe also getting Metallurgy cheaper since Greece seems to be having money problems as they didn't get Economics right off the bat.

We might as well ready our Galleys for travel. As soon as we get Navigation send the one of the mainland immediately east and the one off Uber immediate west. The one off Uber probably won't find the lost civs, but it might find an island between us and the Russians since there seems to be a lot of sea east of the Ruskies. England will probably get Nav pretty soon too so we will be in a race for starting off from the East. Rome will start by sending their ships west. This will basically be a race to find a lost continent. Germany will send their ship in the lake and quickly find that they are idiots. Remember, though it isn't stated, Galleys don't sink once you have Navigation. I don't believe there is enough time to send it back to get an upgrade anyway.

Now, if we find the lost civs first with this method, we will more than get our money back as you all know. We will even get new luxuries probably. If we haven't bought Metallurgy by this time, we will be able to get it along with a huge amount of LPT.

	21-10-2002 13:25									#2
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A compelling argument indeed! If we are to have a period of consolidation, concentrating on infrastracture extra, then this is certainly worth the risk.

But if mil plans are afoot, then Mil. Trad. would be invaluable. It would also improve home defence.

	21-10-2002 13:38									#3
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I agree- let's set our sails and sail towards the unknown!

and besides, exploring across the ocean used to be a dangerous venture, there's no reason we can't risk more lytons for it- this adventure will surely be fun, and perhaps even profitable...

	21-10-2002 14:29									#4
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Yikes! If we do get Navigation in the 2-3 turns I intend to play this chat, I really badly hope that we DON'T discover these other civs by some miracle this time. This will require extensive discussion with the Foreign Ministry to determine what is acceptable and what isn't in trades with these hitherto unknown quantities.

So.... I would like to open debate about what we will do when we discover said civs, assuming that we are the first to find them.

This will all be highly provisional, of course, seeing as we have little idea what techs they will have, no idea of their extent, diplomatic status etc, but it's still worth thinking about.

	21-10-2002 14:45									#5
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I support stopping the game when Navigation is discovered, and the same for when the a lost civ is discovered, even if FM officials will be present in the chat. Both events deserve extensive discussion in the forum.

	21-10-2002 14:47									#6
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You're absolutely right, MWIA, but we need to get to Nav first- then explore- when we find whatever it is to be found- then we definitely pause the game, let UnOrthO post a grand Gazzette issue, celebrate a bit, then get a clear picture of what to do.

This is going to be fun...

	21-10-2002 18:26									#7
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I fully support getting Navigation ASAP by any means and cost necessary.

I believe once we have it ALL other issues should be put on hold while all resources possible (Money/ports) concentrate on ships for the next 2 turns.

Then we resume normal game status and elect/appoint an Admiral of the Navy to plot ship movements of the newly built fleet.

Perhaps, having one person in charge of each ship.

If we do this, I plan on adding an option to the $Mini-Game where citizens can choose specific ships and back them like Merchant Companies and the backers of the first ship to contact the Lost Civs will get HUGE profits. (I thought it would be fun and get the demogamers more into hunting down the lost civs )

	21-10-2002 20:05									#8
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I fully support the Apoc's gamble. And the Ghengis Plan, as a natural development.

	21-10-2002 20:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Yikes! If we do get Navigation in the 2-3 turns I intend to play this chat, I really badly hope that we DON'T discover these other civs by some miracle this time. This will require extensive discussion with the Foreign Ministry to determine what is acceptable and what isn't in trades with these hitherto unknown quantities. So.... I would like to open debate about what we will do when we discover said civs, assuming that we are the first to find them. This will all be highly provisional, of course, seeing as we have little idea what techs they will have, no idea of their extent, diplomatic status etc, but it's still worth thinking about.

I agree, that is definately a show stopper (unless Togas is present at the chat). I suggest getting everything that can be done at that time (CP, PW, SMC moves - but no combat), except for spending monies, and then post the save. THat would be a pre turn 0 for the next round of orders.

E_T

	21-10-2002 21:26									#10
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I agree with what has been discussed so far here. I'll make a point to spare no expense when Navigation becomes available. Let's prepare those ships in the mean time so that they may set sail at the earliest opportunity.

I would like to add that if another Civ is found, our first goal would be to trade for Communication with all of them, then exchange maps. I would not give them communication with any of the Abananba Civs until, perhaps the next chat and after we've discussed how to take full advantage of each side's lack of information of the other.

--Togas

	21-10-2002 22:18									#11
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Galleys need upgraded to Caravels first.

Navigation keeps Caravels from sinking, not Galleys accoriding to the entires in the Civ 1.21f Encylopedia.

Upgrade existing Galleys to Caravels now so they'll be ready to go when Navigation is discovered.

	21-10-2002 23:10									#12
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Joncnunn, I never saw a Galley sinking after Navigation. In my games, at least.

	21-10-2002 23:49									#13
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I've never still had Galleys by the time Navigation was discovered because I always upgrade them to Caravels the turn Astromeny is discovered.

Why needlesssly risk having a galley sink when we can upgrade them now by taking them to a harbor?

	22-10-2002 00:00									#14
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No! There may not be enough time. Trust me, I rarely upgrade the Galleys and they never sink.

	22-10-2002 02:19									#15
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All evidence points to the fact that galleys+Nav= traverse ocean safely, so let's just do it when time comes, and save those few lytons and perhaps even precious time.

	22-10-2002 03:45									#16
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quote: No! There may not be enough time. Trust me, I rarely upgrade the Galleys and they never sink.

The galleys shouldn't sink. I have never had one sink.

Navigation is a major priority and I know that once we make contact with other civs we will be raking in the cash. We must find the other civs first!

	22-10-2002 05:41									#17
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Absolutly Apoc. I'm glad you're making my job so easy for me

	22-10-2002 08:03									#18
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I support Apoc's gamble. We must get Navigation, no matter the cost... and we must find the lost civs before anyone else on Ababanana does!

	22-10-2002 08:30									#19
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Well, the IE, MoS, and FM all support this. All we really need now is the MoE on board.

	22-10-2002 09:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Well, the IE, MoS, and FM all support this. All we really need now is the MoE on board.

Oh, I see how it is the PW doesn't even rank in the support column!

Maybe, I'll have some workers lurk around the shipyards drilling holes in all your ships..............

	22-10-2002 11:47									#21
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Galleys need upgraded to Caravels first. Navigation keeps Caravels from sinking, not Galleys accoriding to the entires in the Civ 1.21f Encylopedia. Upgrade existing Galleys to Caravels now so they'll be ready to go when Navigation is discovered.

Firaxis Galley Answer :

quote: It is neither a bug nor a cheat. The AI can move galleys over oceans because it has discovered Navigation or Magnetism. The human can also move galleys over oceans once s/he has discovered Navigation or Magnetism.

In another post, one of the Firaxians mentions that the civilopedia entry about Galleys is wrong.

	22-10-2002 23:33									#22
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Well, Ghengis, your input as former IE minister is helpful of PW doesn't work unless we find some luxury on a newly discoverd island we need to connect.