22-10-2002 00:14									#1
	Scientific Civs' Free Techs? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I almost always play random civs which means that I get a scientific civ about every third time I play (though it seems like less often), so I don't have a ton of experience with scientific civs.

Scientific civs get a free technology upon advancing into a new age. Does anyhone know how that free tech is chosen? Is it entirely random? Is it influenced by the first tech you select as your research choice in the new age? Is it influenced by your opponents, game position, etc.? Anybody know with any degree of certainty?

I always seem to get Monotheism, Nationalism, and Rocketry, but in my latest game I was very pleased to receive Ecology upon entrance to the Modern Age. I think, but frankly don't trust my memory, that I've also gotten Feudalism once and Medicine once, both long ago. In that most most recent game, I selected Computers as my first Modern Age research project -- I tend to go for Fission first in most cases, to the extent that that bit of data matters. I did a forum search and found nothing. Thanks.

Catt

	22-10-2002 00:20									#2
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You are getting Alzheimer's, I think, although I can't remember either.

Its mono, nationalism, rocketry every time. If you skip nationalism, as I normallly do, you don't lose ground to the scientific civs as you head toward ToE.

Taking the question more seriously, I can't come up with any way you could generate the result you report. Did you trade for rocketry on the same turn you finished the last industrial era tech or something clever like that?

BTW, if you do start with computers as you mentioned, and then quickly build research labs and seti, it seems to be possible to significantly reduce reserach time for the other SS techs.

Last edited by jshelr on 22-10-2002 at 00:33

	22-10-2002 00:36									#3
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Nope - no trading for Rocketry.

To the extent it matters, it was an Emperor game, small map, 1.29f unmodded rules, all random; I was playing Persia; my original opponents were Zulu, Babylonians, Romans, Egyptians, and Aztecs. I got lucky and played a pretty dominant game -- at the time I entered the Modern Age, I think my closest competitor was researching Combustion (but hadn't done any of the lower techs like Medicine, Scientific Method, Atomic Theory, etc.). I was so far ahead that the UN didn't hold any danger for me so I was free to choose something other than Fission (which I usually go after just to get the UN as a defensive measure).

And, while I may have the beginning stages of Alzheimer's , I also think I remember getting Ecology for free long ago, but never Computers or Fission (but again don't trust my memory). I don't ever remember getting Engineering or Steam Power for free.

Catt

	22-10-2002 01:07									#4
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I usually get Monotheism in the Middle Age, though I've heard of getting Feudalism, and I think I got Engineering once or twice. I usually get Nationalism, but have occasionally gotten Steam Power! I think I've gotten every tech in the Modern Age at least once, though Computers and Rocketry seem to be dominant.

	22-10-2002 02:09									#5
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I may be wrong, but I think it may be tied to what other scientific civs are in the game. For instance, I was recently playing as russia and my closest rival was germany. at one age (Sorry, i dont remember which) We hit the new age within 1 or 2 turns of each other (everyone else was behind) and I got a different tech than he got. i know this because as soon as I got that tech I called bismark up on the secure phone and traded the tech I just got for the one he just got. I think it was montheism for fuedalism but it might have been medicine for nationalism or comupters for rockety. I don't really remember. sorry. anyhow, I think that may have somthing to do with it.

lateralis

	22-10-2002 02:27									#6
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It would be nice if they let you select which tech you want. I always get mono., nationalism, and rocketry also.

quote: If you skip nationalism, as I normallly do

Not to get off topic but how does skipping nationalism work out for you? I just about never skip it myself. Though I never make it a great priority.

	22-10-2002 02:34									#7
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Didn't this change at one point? It used to be the cheapest, and now it's what?

(or am I thinking of the TOE?)

	22-10-2002 02:53									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Didn't this change at one point? It used to be the cheapest, and now it's what? (or am I thinking of the TOE?)

You're thinking ToE which gave the two cheapest (and now gives the current research project and a tech of your choice).

And Nationalism has gotten godawful expensive under 1.29f (trade value, not editor research value). Damn near impossible to trade for it if the game is close (even with a bunch of scientific civs in the game getting it for free).

Sheik - I didn't start skipping Nationalism until a few months ago, now I routinely do it. I'd rather get my rail lines laid and/or my factories up and running, and then, if I am nervous with my defenisve posture, I can get Replaceable Parts on the way to Scientific Method. Has rarely proven to be a problem, although in a very recent game (AU 107) I was forced to go after Nationalism instead of Steam Power due to an invasion by a superior foe -- I needed rifles and I thought that I might need mobilization and the draft. Unless something similar happens in future games, I will merrily go on about my business skipping right past Nationalism.

Catt

	22-10-2002 04:51									#9
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I never got anything else than mono, nationalism and rocketry.

On some thread a few days ago I read about "rocketry, the advance for the scientific civs", but I don't know if the writer knew it or we are just quoting each other in a circle here

	22-10-2002 04:58									#10
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IIRC , you always get the top tech, don't know why, that's just the way it is.....somethings will never......

	22-10-2002 05:16									#11
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The usual techs you get free are Monotheism, Nationalism and Rocketry. No dispute with that.

However, I have found that as I enter the middle ages, and choose Monotheism to research, I'll get Feudalism or Engineering (more likely feudalism) instead. Once in the Industrial age, I selected Nationalism and got Medicine as my free tech. Once in the modern era, I chose Rocketry and got Fission for free.

In short, my personal experience dictates that I always get Monotheism, Nationalism and Rocketry, unless I pick those techs as the first ones to research at the start of each era. Thus, it is possible to assert a limited control as to the techs attained free by striking out the ones that are free by default.

	22-10-2002 05:57									#12
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Is the way you do it LordAzreal better? In other words are the techs you get by researching the "free" tech first better then the "free" tech itself? I guess it would depend on what your style is but what do you think?

	22-10-2002 06:24									#13
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It would depend on a number of things. However, I would always prefer Feudalism to Monotheism, so I can get Pikemen right away and make a quick start on Sun Tzu's AoW.

As for Medicine instead of Nationalism, I am indifferent. I would rather have gained Steam Power as my free tech, but still, Medicine is the critical tech attainable as a free scientific tech, and leads to Scientific Method, so I guess that's the better one to kick off the Industrial age than Nationalism, whose dead end lies with Communism and Espionage (all of which are non-critical and cheaply bought).

As for Fission instead of Rocketry, it hardly matters, unless I am aiming for a diplomatic victory and want to make an early start on the U.N. But without diplomatic victory, I'll most likely want to build nuclear plants, and so I'll want Fission first instead of Rocketry.

Another thing to factor in is that if there are other scientific civs near you who are right about dead even in terms of tech and start each age about the same time as you do, you can get a tech that means an extra tech you can trade right away (unless the tech is a prerequisite for a wonder and you don't want to give them a chance at catching up on a wonder).

And in the case of the Industrial age, getting a critical tech instead of the non-critical tech the others will get will get you a head start towards Motorized Transportation.

	22-10-2002 09:45									#14
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I reloaded a saved game from just before I entered into the Modern Ages and replayed the turn four times, selecting the four possible tech choices each time. In all cases I received Ecology as the free tech -- even when I chose to research Ecology, I immediately got it for free and was prompted to choose another research path.

I play with random seed preserved so I was obviously playing with the same seed and I didn't do crazy things in order to try and change the seed. I still have no idea how and why a given tech is chosen, but (again subject to my aged memory ) I can count on one hand the number of times I've received anything other than Monotheism, Nationalism, or Rocketry. So why Ecology?



Catt

	22-10-2002 11:41									#15
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IIRC it gives me what I am research and then the lowest one that I could research. That is often Espionage, as I likely have skipped it. I do not play SCI civs much, but I have used Germany some.

	23-10-2002 00:51									#16
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--

Last edited by metalhead on 23-10-2002 at 01:13

	23-10-2002 00:51									#17
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Sorry to offer pure conjecture when a definitive answer was asked for, but could it possibly have to do with getting the cheapest tech first? It's been awhile since I've gotten anything other than Mono, Nat, and Rock as my freebies. This seems to correlate to the fact that I have been ahead in tech in my last 6 or 7 games at these points. Perhaps on the off-times where another tech has been received (I myself have received all of the "off-choices" before), it means that one or more non-scientific civs have reached the next age first, and discovered one of the other techs first, reducing its cost to below that of Mono/Nat/Rock, depending on the age.

This theory sounds good, although I have never witnessed an AI scientific civ receiving a different tech upon entering a new age. Perhaps it is something to pay attention to.

	23-10-2002 01:06									#18
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead . . . could it possibly have to do with getting the cheapest tech first?

It's an interesting theory, but I don't think it works. I don't have access to the editor right now, but I am pretty sure that the editor's "beaker cost" for Nationalism is 120 while the editor's beaker cost for Medicine is 100. Plus, the "trade cost" for Nationalism is a lot higher than its 120 beaker cost. Both theses facts would imply that something else is at work in the selection (otherwise we would often get Medicine?), but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Catt

	23-10-2002 01:20									#19
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Yeah, I'm at work and thought medicine was cheaper, but figured I'd try a theory anyways. Maybe it gives you the 2nd least expensive one. Or, maybe it is completely random, with Mono/Nat/Rock having higher probabilities than the others, although I do only seem to get other techs when at parity or behind in techs

	23-10-2002 01:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead . . . although I do only seem to get other techs when at parity or behind in techs

Before the game that occasioned this thread, I can't specifically remember the last time I got anything other than Mono / Nat / Rocketry, but I know that I had at some point. And in this game I had an absolute commanding tech lead.

Sure would like to hear from Firaxis as to how a scientific civ's free tech is chosen -- it's not terribly important to the game, but it's just become a bit of a nagging curiousity at this point.

Catt

	23-10-2002 01:53									#21
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I dunno about all this, but I definitely try to kill off the scientific AI civs. Those SOBs always pass nationalism around!

-Arrian

	23-10-2002 15:51									#22
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I think it is based on the idea that you get the cheapest tech. But instead of actually looking which tech is cheapest, maybe Firaxis made a separate list which shows the techs in order, which they didn't change after altering the costs in the new patches.

The reason I believe it has to do with cost is that this would be in line with techs from goody huts. You always get the cheapest tech available from a tech goody hut.

	24-10-2002 05:08									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane I think it is based on the idea that you get the cheapest tech. But instead of actually looking which tech is cheapest, maybe Firaxis made a separate list which shows the techs in order, which they didn't change after altering the costs in the new patches.

But, Nationalism has the same "editor cost" as Steam Power, and a significantly higher "trade cost" to boot, and Medicine is cheaper than both in "editor cost" and, in my limited experience, in trade cost. Also, Ecology has a higher "editor cost" than Rocketry (so why would I get Ecology?) and, although purely anecdotal and on limited experience, Ecology seems also to have a higher "trade cost" than Rocketry.

Sorry to keep this dead thread alive since I know it's ultimately not very important, but the subject has been a tiny little woodpecker working away at a soft spot in my brain. why? why? why? why? why?

Catt

	24-10-2002 07:10									#24
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I also would like to know how the game decides which free techs Scientific civs get at every age. Monotheism is fine, I'll rarely want the either of the other two first in any given game. Nationalism is just annoying...I never use its abilities (mostly because the other civs already have it and so I have the option to sign MPPs anyway); Steam Power is the tech that you want in the Industrial age. The Modern age is a toss-up: sometimes I'll want Fission just to end the game right then and there, and sometimes I'm just waiting to get Computers kick some butt with Mech. Infantry. Rocketry has its obvious uses for the Space Race.

It's unfortunate that you can't simply pick the one you want every time...would that be so unbalanced?


Dominae

	24-10-2002 18:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Sorry to keep this dead thread alive since I know it's ultimately not very important, but the subject has been a tiny little woodpecker working away at a soft spot in my brain. why? why? why? why? why? Catt

Catt, I was going create the same thread very soon if I hadn't seen yours - I think more people would like an answer to this than you may think!

I had another thought (go figure!) that maybe you get the tech owned by the most civs. If you are the first to reach a new age, you automatically get Mono/Nat/Rock, but it seems that you sometimes get one of the others only when you are lagging behind. Perhaps if an equal # of Civs own each of the beginning techs, you get one randomly. Since I am ready to step un to Emperor, and will no doubt be pitifully behind in the first couple games, I will observe what happens when I enter new ages behind in techs and look for some sort of pattern.

	25-10-2002 00:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead I had another thought (go figure!) that maybe you get the tech owned by the most civs. If you are the first to reach a new age, you automatically get Mono/Nat/Rock, but it seems that you sometimes get one of the others only when you are lagging behind. Perhaps if an equal # of Civs own each of the beginning techs, you get one randomly.

Another interesting guess, but:

quote: Originally posted by Catt Before the game that occasioned this thread, I can't specifically remember the last time I got anything other than Mono / Nat / Rocketry, but I know that I had at some point. And in this game I had an absolute commanding tech lead.

I was half an age ahead of the nearest competitor when I got Ecology.

Perhaps it is the other way around? That if you are the first to a new age, you get something random, but if you're not first you get the most widely-known tech? But would the rules be different for human and AI? because it seems that the AI pretty much always get Mono / Nat / Rocketry, whether first to the age or not.



Catt

	25-10-2002 01:47									#27
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Well, it's officially a mystery. Maybe a little hint from Firaxis will be forthcoming?

	25-10-2002 08:22									#28
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Maybe a Firaxis member will be nice enough to stop by and grace us with the answer to this. I doubt it though, since they are probably a tad busy right now.

	26-10-2002 01:16									#29
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Well, I've always gotten Fuedalism, Nationalism, and Rockety as the free techs as Scientfic.

(I have always reserached one of Monarchy / Republic and traded for the other when playing a scientific civ prior to finishing the last required tech for the ancient era.)

	17-01-2003 00:44									#30
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In a spoiler thread to a CFC GOTM, Mike B. of Firaxis recently took the time to post a partial answer to the questions posed by this thread. Looks like change may be on the way in the next patch in any event!

Thanks to Yndy for directing my attention to the Mike B post (I would never have seen it otherwise).

quote: Originally posted by Mike B. of Firaxis at CFC Basically, it's a result of the algorithm used to randomly select an available tech. It's unintentionally heavily weighted towards the available tech that appears first in the list of techs (in the editor). It is supposed to select, at random, one tech from the new era that is available to the player (i.e., it has no prerequisites). As an example, with unmodded rules you have the following available techs in the modern era with these approximate chances of being received: 91% Rocketry 1% Fission 1% Computers 7% Ecology As you can see, Rocketry is heavily favored (simply because of it's placement within the list). This is unintentional and all 4 techs should have an equal chance of being selected. I will look into improving this for the next PTW patch. __________________ Mike Breitkreutz Lead Programmer, PTW FIRAXIS Games