23-10-2002 05:34									#1
	Official DoSE Poll: Social Engineering scheme Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Alright, here's an idea that was dreamed up and fleshed out by me and Archaic.

The SE poll I put up seems to suggest that Planned and Democracy will be the choices we make, BUT the concern was that Planned will kill our Efficiency somewhat creating both drones and less energy, and Democracy will eliminate our 10 free minerals at the start of each base.

So the ideas is this: we will return the scouts we have to our bases (so as not to cause unhappiness in FM), and change to FM/Democracy. This will give us lotsa energy whilst still allowing us to grow with the Demo Growth bonus. When we are to found a new base, we change out of Democracy the turn before founding the new base, so we can get the 10 free resources for that new base. After the base is founded, we then change back to Democracy and have barely skipped a beat. This should cost us 16 energy per change, so we are effectively buying those minerals for 32 energy. And in the meantime we will be making lots more from FM!


Whaddaya think? If passed, this wouldn't be initiated until we can call back the scouts to our own bases, as the unhappiness would be annoying. It could be a way to boost ourselves ahead of the other factions early on whilst still mainataining a decent expansion rate.

4 Days, as this will likely not happen in the next chat anyway.

	23-10-2002 05:58									#2
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ok: a few things with this. if we did it, it wouldn't be worth it just to found 1 base. at least 2 would have to be done on the same turn to make it worth while. second, the cost isn't 16, but 32 IIRC.

then, if we did switch to FM, we'd need at least 10% psych to counter the drones (mind you we could afford it due to the elevated energy). this might even cause GAs in some places.

another thing: we'd need to keep some empath units around, the only problem with that being that we don't have the tech for it yet

and archaic: i asked in the general forum: apparently the +1 economy does work, and so does the growth, except it doesn't cause pop booms. so the most we can get by using GAs, is +5 growth.

MWIA: i suggest you hold a poll re: wealth now. we might get the tech for it in the next chat.

	23-10-2002 09:58									#3
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Part of the idea is to time our base establishments so that 2-3 coincide and we can get the most out of the least number of turns out of Democracy.

This is a bit of a radical idea, but it might just give us an edge. I'm not sure which number to take for SE changes, 16 or 32, as I have seen both. I will check myself when I get home.

	23-10-2002 12:21									#4
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Unefficiency dont cause Drones.

Two social engineering in the same turn is such a drastic revolution : cost 108 credits. It would cost 32 + 32 if we do it in two turns. We have 259 credits available.

If we switch to FM + Demo right now,
New apolyton will have three drones out of four citizens, all citizens must become Doctors to avoid drone riots.
Tbibtu will have one drone, needing all two population to turn to doctors.
New Suez will riot at nex pop point (6turns),
UN PD will riot at next pop point (4turns)

If we switch to FM + 10%psych, after the scouts came back home : (I simulate that by disbading all non-independent units outta bases)
NA will have two drones, one doctor needed. Pop point at next turn, must be turned doctor to avoid riots, base growth becomes impossible.
TBIBTU will have one drone, one doctor needed : next pop point is next turn, it will make one talent/one citizen/one drone.
UN PD will need his next citizen to be turned into a doctor, stopping growth at 4.

	23-10-2002 12:23									#5
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And the 10% psych allocation seems useless, since no base of us has 20+ energy, which would have 2 psy, what is needed to turna citizen a talent, or a drone to a citizen.
20% psych allocation is useless too, since no base have 10+ energy.

	23-10-2002 12:41									#6
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quote: Unefficiency dont cause Drones.

Yes it does. B-drones, as Archaic refers to them as. Look it up, if you don't believe me.

	23-10-2002 12:45									#7
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What do you call B-Drones ?

	23-10-2002 12:59									#8
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Bureaucracy drones. They're created by the number of bases you have, modified by your efficincy level.

Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 23-10-2002 at 13:16

	23-10-2002 15:01									#9
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ofcoure it is a good idea but it isnt really roleplay like you know.......we have some ideals or we have none............IF the later is the case lets build PLANETBUSTERS.... j/k but still not really roleplayer like

	23-10-2002 15:09									#10
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We dont have enough bases for "b-drones"

	23-10-2002 15:23									#11
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If we go Planned w/o Demo, we will. At our current EFFIC level, we will hit the first limit at 20 bases.

Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 23-10-2002 at 15:55

	23-10-2002 15:33									#12
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First option. Money, money, money!

	23-10-2002 18:17									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus If we go Planned w/o Demo, we will. At our current EFFIC level, we will hit the first limit at 20 bases.

Hey, come on dont be silly. We're no punks, we wont do planned without Demo. By the way, its Planned+Demo that has been voted.

	23-10-2002 18:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus If we go Planned w/o Demo, we will. At our current EFFIC level, we will hit the first limit at 20 bases.

Your calcs are flawed, but by nowhere near the level Unskilled Labourer Pan's assumptions are.


For our game settings...

X = 2 * BASES / (6.4 * [4 + EFFIC])
B-Drones = X for all values of X>=1


At 20 bases with our current settings

2 * 20 / (6.4 * [4 + -1])
40 / 6.4 * 3
40 / 19.2
2.083_ B-Drones

For B-Drones to be 0 with our current settings, or with Demo/Planned, we need no more than 9 bases.
9 Bases = 18 / 19.2 = 0.9375 = 0 B-Drones
10 Bases = 20 / 19.2 = 1.046_ B-Drone

For B-Drones to be 0 with only Planned, we can have no more than 3 bases.
3 Bases = 6 / 6.4 = 0.9375 = 0 B-Drones
4 Bases = 8 / 6.4 = 1.25 B-Drones

For B-Drones to be 0 with Free Market / Planned, we can have no more than 15 bases.
15 Bases = 30 / 32 = 0.9375 = 0 B-Drones
16 Bases = 32 / 32 = 1 B-Drone


Oh, and DBTS, I addressed the roleplay issue of it in the SE Debate thread.

	23-10-2002 21:26									#15
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If in-turn SE changes for diplomatic reasons (which can simply be explained as flattery or bribing) are frowned upon as cheating, this whole scheme just reeks of massive powergaming breakage.

	23-10-2002 21:32									#16
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Yeah! No SE quickies, you cheaters!

	23-10-2002 23:52									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TKG MWIA: i suggest you hold a poll re: wealth now. we might get the tech for it in the next chat.

	24-10-2002 05:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Yeah! No SE quickies, you cheaters!

Since when is it a quickie? For Demo, we switch, stay out of Demo for that turn and the next, then switch back to Demo. For Planned, we switch into it for one year, then switch back the next year. In both situations, we have to live with the consequences of our short changeover.

	24-10-2002 08:31									#19
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I voted no. Switching SE's that quickly is expensive. And I don't want Democracy to be something we as UN Peacekeepers do when convenient -- especially when other factions could compare us unfavorably with the Morganites for doing so.

	24-10-2002 12:03									#20
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quote: Your calcs are flawed, but by nowhere near the level Unskilled Labourer Pan's assumptions are. For our game settings... X = 2 * BASES / (6.4 * [4 + EFFIC]) B-Drones = X for all values of X>=1 At 20 bases with our current settings 2 * 20 / (6.4 * [4 + -1]) 40 / 6.4 * 3 40 / 19.2 2.083_ B-Drones For B-Drones to be 0 with our current settings, or with Demo/Planned, we need no more than 9 bases. 9 Bases = 18 / 19.2 = 0.9375 = 0 B-Drones 10 Bases = 20 / 19.2 = 1.046_ B-Drone For B-Drones to be 0 with only Planned, we can have no more than 3 bases. 3 Bases = 6 / 6.4 = 0.9375 = 0 B-Drones 4 Bases = 8 / 6.4 = 1.25 B-Drones For B-Drones to be 0 with Free Market / Planned, we can have no more than 15 bases. 15 Bases = 30 / 32 = 0.9375 = 0 B-Drones 16 Bases = 32 / 32 = 1 B-Drone

I stand corrected. That doesn't hurt my point any.

	24-10-2002 14:20									#21
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Agreed GT. It only furthers our point.

quote: Originally posted by AdamTG02 I voted no. Switching SE's that quickly is expensive. And I don't want Democracy to be something we as UN Peacekeepers do when convenient -- especially when other factions could compare us unfavorably with the Morganites for doing so.

I gave an RP explanation for this in the SE Debate thread. A temp. suspension of elections and the parliment while the bureaucracy is restructured to allow the citizens in the new colonies proper representation in the Peacekeeper Government.

	24-10-2002 14:50									#22
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Nope, stick w/Planned and Demo.

FM is too risky...we may get more drone's than we can deal with. Planned will also boost our growth, which I think we need.

	24-10-2002 14:59									#23
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quote: Nope, stick w/Planned and Demo. FM is too risky...we may get more drone's than we can deal with. Planned will also boost our growth, which I think we need.

Going by the screenshots, only 2 bases will be in danger of riots if we recall the scouts before switching, and they can be dealt with quite easily by Psych & specialists.

	24-10-2002 15:04									#24
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Not that easily, GT, re-read my post with the stats for this.

	24-10-2002 15:08									#25
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You're making these statements without taking into account the energy bonus from FM. With it, NA will get to 10 energy and TBIBTU will if it grows again.

	24-10-2002 15:13									#26
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No, I made it with the FM bonus. But look : 10% of 10 energy makes 1 energy for psych, with no onus of psych for facilities, thats not enough to make a Talent. With 20%, we can have one, and waste about twenty percent of our overall energy output for ONE talent. Psych is not the good way to deal with those drones.

If we make specialists, then our bigger bases wont be able to grow anymore. As the UN Peacekeepers, we can go to size 9 without HabComplex, so it would be our bigger mistake to stop growth at size 4 or 5.

	24-10-2002 15:17									#27
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quote: No, I made it with the FM bonus. But look : 10% of 10 energy makes 1 energy for psych, with no onus of psych for facilities, thats not enough to make a Talent. With 20%, we can have one, and waste about twenty percent of our overall energy output for ONE talent. Psych is not the good way to deal with those drones.

It's only a couple of energy units, and it willa llow us to keep production going as it is now. We'll still be making more money than we were before, and that one talent is all we need to prevent rioting.

quote: . If we make specialists, then our bigger bases wont be able to grow anymore. As the UN Peacekeepers, we can go to size 9 without HabComplex, so it would be our bigger mistake to stop growth at size 4 or 5.

Which is why I want to use Psych, where possible.

	24-10-2002 15:26									#28
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[/quote]and that one talent is all we need to prevent rioting.[/quote]
U missed the point : We DON'T have this one Talent with 10% psych. We have him with 20% psych. And we have ONE talent, in ALL our bases (in NA).

	24-10-2002 15:34									#29
	Remove this text

I'm talking about using 20% Psych. When did I give the impression that I wasn't?

	24-10-2002 16:47									#30
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First off, just to clear things up, there is no question of us changing instantly, it would be once we have returned those scouts and possibly not until we have some Psych improvements in those two problematic cities.

Just think of the advantage of VW here! Buying Network Nodes everywhere would REALLY help.

/shameless plug for VW off/

This IS a little risky, but if it doesn't work out we only need to change out of FM, we'd already be Democracy, so we just lose maybe 32 energy at most in the change back. But if it DOES work, think of the benefits!