23-10-2002 09:14									#1
	renewed call for improvements in ai tactics Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, i've been here before, but as I wait for ptw, I find myself obsessing with a few ideas that would make the AI much more challenging.

Oh, and by the way - I respect the hell out of what Soren has done here - truly amazing, so when i refer to the ai as stupid....
1. it is not a reflection of the programming, and
2. realize that even with the flaws this is the best yet, especially with the patches

So, that aside...

1. The AI needs to know how to bombard. By the time I have my cannon hordes and frigates/ironclad armadas, nothing can stand in my way. It just gets tedious knowing the ai is utterly clueless as to how to respond. Not only can i rest assured that i will never have to worry about the same treatment myself, but even on the defensive, the ai falls down utterly. every turn i am sitting outside their cities, they should be pounding me. In fact if the ai could properrly utilize bombardment, it would simulate nicely the perriod of warfare just prior to the advent of the tank.
2. Related, but somewhat differrent is the general inability of the ai to utilize combined arms tactics. How many times have I seen a lone longbowmen march right up to my kill stackunguarded - or even 2 or 3 or 4, just to be slaughtered by me? Every time a high offense/low defense unit wanders out into danger, it should be accompanied by defensive units, to the tune of around 2/1 to 4/1 offensive to defensive. Too easy.
3. Related to point 2, the piecemeal nature of ai attacks is wearisomely predictable. A big kill stack will triumph over the piecemeal attack almost everry time, land and naval. Send out a few screening units, a few kamikaze raiders, a few scout types, but concentrate forces! The worse example I've seen of this has to be the use of marines by my opponents last game. I watched hordes of Aztec marines land assaulting my well fortified border cities - no problem - then too my horror watched them attempt an amphibious invasion of my thinly guarded rear cities. Again, no problem - the ai was unable to use more than 1 marine at a time despite its obvious hordes or the same, so i escaped unscathed. even 2 marines might have done the job there, but no, typical piecemeal ai BS. Along the same lines, i highly question the tactical value of the 1 - 3 unit invasion in general the ai tries in an attempt to distract. Real invasions involve naval bombardment and resence to support.

And in anticipation of comments/questions, i play on monarch level. I hate blatent ai cheating on the higher levels and dislike being tied into the constant warfare needed to triumph at those levels, the lack of options inherent in it.

Basically i just want to see a better game, and in my ignorance, feel thqat these are not unrealistic suggestions. Guess i'll have to wait for ptw...........

ps: how about that irritating glitch where the ai snags your workers and they teleport away? hmmm.....

	23-10-2002 09:38									#2
	Re: renewed call for improvements in ai tactics Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with your points. I wish they could use bombardment effectively. It would certainly increase depth considerably. What is strange to me is the fact that it is ok at handling a navy: if I'm not careful they will bomb the hell out of my coastline, or at least enough to harass me. but rarely do I see artillery units on the move and attack.

I agree with the piecemeal attacks, but I sorta do it the same way sometimes. I use an initial large push to take out as much as possible and then rush reinforcements to the front. However, I will cease attacking if there aren't enough units to kill anything or take any cities. I will amass again. The AI does need work though, its annoying to just swat away the single units one by one. I know if I can repulse the first attack, I can usually hold on. Also I would like to see the AI attacking more on multiple fronts, effective attacks that is.

Also the stack of doom is pretty easy to bait. Case in point: one game a stack of 20 or so immortals was moving (very slowly) towards my city. So I use my roads and move warriors to a few of its sides. They kill each warrior, thus breaking the stack into more manageable stacks or individual units. Much easier killing individual units than in a huge stack. I whittle down the army or at least neuter it, no problem. I wish they would pick a city and just go for it and not be distracted so easily. OTOH, this could backfire by them getting attacked and not responding. Sigh, I have no answer for this problem. Maybe horses stacked with immortals. Can attack, but keep up with the stack.

I don't think my post made much sense, but I am not going to edit it at this time :P

quote: Originally posted by bigvic ps: how about that irritating glitch where the ai snags your workers and they teleport away? hmmm.....

The AI likes to kill your workers if they are too far from their border, maybe that's what you're seeing.

	23-10-2002 09:44									#3
	Re: Re: renewed call for improvements in ai tactics Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Maybe horses stacked with immortals. Can attack, but keep up with the stack.

exactly - combined arms!

good tactic with the immortal hode, by the way!

see, tis is what soren should be looking at - what humans do........

	23-10-2002 10:12									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Soren has commented on combined arms a couple of times. From what I understand, the current code structure makes this change a very difficult one. I have suggested some relatively easy ways to implement combined arms, such as stacks with 10% bombard units. The caveat is that this is easy to do if it is in the original design document, but may be very difficult to do given the current nest of AI code. The flagging of units as offensive or defensive seems a particularly big stumbling block.

Big AI stacks are common on higher difficulty levels (Emperor, Deity). The AI does a passable job when it is far ahead in tech and production. When the AI is even or behind (Monarch or below against a decent player), it is not much of a threat.
- Bill

	23-10-2002 10:15									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BillChin Soren has commented on combined arms a couple of times. From what I understand, the current code structure makes this change a very difficult one. I have suggested some relatively easy ways to implement combined arms, such as stacks with 10% bombard units. The caveat is that this is easy to do if it is in the original design document, but may be very difficult to do given the current nest of AI code. The flagging of units as offensive or defensive seems a particularly big stumbling block. Big AI stacks are common on higher difficulty levels (Emperor, Deity). The AI does a passable job when it is far ahead in tech and production. When the AI is even or behind (Monarch or below against a decent player), it is not much of a threat. - Bill

good insight.

makes me sad though.......

	23-10-2002 16:04									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If the AI would just able to manage his workers more efficiently, we would have alot tougher game on our hands IMO.