23-10-2002 09:24									#1
	What the hell is up with the historical researchers at firaxis? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I heard Sid was a history major. makes sense in light of his game. all i can say is he must have nothing to do with his games any more other than lending his name. How anyone with any historical knowledge could classify Spain as commercial or the Ottomans as scientific is totally beyond my comrehension. Wow.......

For that matter, Persia - scientific? China - militaristic? Well, think i'll be doing some modding when ptw is finally on my hard drive.......

	23-10-2002 09:41									#2
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I agree there are few anomalies. Namely the two you mentioned, China and Persia and IMO scientific Russia as well. Ottomans as scientific makes a bit of sense, they did start some of the first universities in Europe after all and Spain's new world conquests were all built around commerce. They were extremely rich there for a while.

	23-10-2002 09:52									#3
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I agree there are few anomalies. Namely the two you mentioned, China and Persia and IMO scientific Russia as well. Ottomans as scientific makes a bit of sense, they did start some of the first universities in Europe after all and Spain's new world conquests were all built around commerce. They were extremely rich there for a while.

Actually, spain had the most backward, medieval economy of europe. they got rich by plundering the native americans (ability to plunder does not equate to commercial), then blew it all on the militaryy while true commercial powers like england and france were developping joint stock companies and banking. portugal, maybe, as commercial, but not spain. in fact few european powers could be considered less commercial than spain, perhaps albania.......

are the arabs scientific? they should be. but the ottomans.......well, they were shooting arrows when europeans were using firearms. just think something like militaristic/expansionist would have fit better. hmmm.....

	23-10-2002 09:52									#4
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Persia originated the decimal system and was at the forefront of medical advances in the Islamic world for some time. The Persian university at Jundishapur was one of the greatest of the time and actually received greek scholars after the close of Plato's academy.

Chinese and militaristic... Sun Tzu's Art of War, anyone? Have you ever heard of the warring states period?

	23-10-2002 10:19									#5
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There was a huge thread about the ottomans and why are they scientific/industrious. Almost everybody would have made them militaristic/expansionist.

Btw, why are the french industrious?

Some civ traits are so not because historical realism, but to achieve a good balance of the game.

	23-10-2002 10:48									#6
	Re: What the hell is up with the historical researchers at firaxis? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by bigvic I heard Sid was a history major. makes sense in light of his game. all i can say is he must have nothing to do with his games any more other than lending his name. How anyone with any historical knowledge could classify Spain as commercial or the Ottomans as scientific is totally beyond my comrehension. Wow....... For that matter, Persia - scientific? China - militaristic? Well, think i'll be doing some modding when ptw is finally on my hard drive.......

Modding won't be enough considering the limitations of the editor.

Sid had nothing to do with the game, and whether anyone at Firaxis ever took a single History course remains unknown even though that question has been raised many times. I doubt if they did.

Classification of civilizations incorrectly is a minor historical problem. Lack of histotriciity and the appearance of realism has been a main complaint about the game for almost eleven months.

But if you can mod it, after giving them even more money for PTW, be my guest. Just remember, it's History at a very rudimentary level, at best.

Hopefully, PTW won't be another beta, for those who get it.

	23-10-2002 14:12									#7
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But will you buy it Coracle?

	23-10-2002 14:40									#8
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Miltaristic/industrous china is perfect. That was the way Maos china was.

I dpn't know anything about Osman though. Could someone please enlighten me?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But will you buy it Coracle?

It takes a tiger to ask such a question.

	23-10-2002 14:57									#9
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And will Coracle complain about his purchase for 9 months afterwards.

Sid has said repeatedly that historical accuracy takes a backburner in his games. In an article I seem to remember reading a while back he said if this stuff isn't in a kiddy book on the subject, it probably won't be fun and therefore won't sell. Fun over accuracy every time.

	23-10-2002 15:03									#10
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expansionist/scientific is the way china should be afterall they were the first to invent firearms paper steel and many more

	23-10-2002 15:23									#11
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Many civs could have more than 2 traits. Like the chinese that could have been scientific or the germans industrious, the romans industrious, the americans scientific, etc. They had to choose only 2 for each civ.

I've never modded civ traits, but in PtW I will definitely change the turks to mil/exp and the spanish to exp/religious.

	23-10-2002 15:34									#12
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If you look hard enough, I guess every civ has more then 2 traits

Every site does need a Coracle IMO, but 1 is enough

	23-10-2002 16:19									#13
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quote: Chinese and militaristic... Sun Tzu's Art of War, anyone? Have you ever heard of the warring states period?

Also the three kingdoms period

	23-10-2002 16:27									#14
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Russia beintg scientific actually makes sence, the dude who invented the periodic table was russian, and lets not forget getting the first man in space, and the first satellite.

	23-10-2002 18:19									#15
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My mods when the game come out:

America should be religious and militaristic
China should be industrious and scientific
Spain should be religious/exp
Arabs should be religious/scientific (or commercial)
Romans should definatly be religious, after all it was they who made us all christians/exp

	23-10-2002 19:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Btw, why are the french industrious?

Look at the effect of being indutrious in the game.
Being industrious does not mean working like ants, it means building roads, drying swamps, improving land,... it means having good engineers.

French always had good engineers.
Begin with Vauban (city walls++), LeNotre (French Gardens: a masterpiece of hydraulic engineering) and go on with Lesseps and Eiffel.
They have dig the Suez Canal and started the Panama one.
Today they are one of the greatest bridge builders nation in the world.
They have great succes with their TGV train.
Together with UK, they built the tunnel under the Channel.
They are #1 in Europe in space program.

	23-10-2002 19:59									#17
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Yeah, good comments. I know the game is not supposed to be totally historically accurate, but a few glaring boo boo's do stand out. Modding, by the way, is easy - modding well, to maintain or establish some kind of balance, though, is harder. I now accept scientific for persia, though one could make quite an argument for religious (early development of Zoroastrianism, current Shi'ite theocracy). China? Militaristic? Gee, all those periods of warfare in China are more analogous to Europe's periods of warfare, and I think China shouuld be seen, before the modern era, as more of a cultural/geographic region than a single political entity, like France. When has China embarked on major campaigns of conquest (external)? The period of warring states could just as easily be viewed as a long early period of anarchy for a non religious civ between governments. The most militaristic bents in China after this were a result of takeovers by Mongols and quasi mongols (Manchus). I would agree with the industrious part (great wall), but am more prone to classify them as scientific (paper monney, gunpowder, etc) than militaristic.

3 traits would be a good idea, i have considered it for my mod, but mainly for expansionist civs, or for UU weak civs - but then i gave scouts an extra move point and made some improvements expansionist, like courthouses, harbors, and a few other and this seems to work well, though i im tempted to give the poor english another trait (what thouugh, industrious? too powerful)

Spain - expansionist/religious
ottomans militaristic/expansionist

oh well, got to go

	23-10-2002 20:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by KaiserIsak My mods when the game come out: America should be religious and militaristic China should be industrious and scientific Spain should be religious/exp Arabs should be religious/scientific (or commercial) Romans should definatly be religious, after all it was they who made us all christians/exp

America religious/militaristic?? America has a diverse population with varying religions. This country was founded on Jefferson's notion of separation of church and state. If anything, they should be a combination of the following traits:
--Industrious
--Scientific
--Expansionist
--Militaristic

EDIT: I mean a combination of two of the above traits.

China should remain Militaristic, for the reasons that other posters have mentioned.

I agree with your assessment of Spain.

I can see the reasoning for your choices for the Arabs.

Hrm I dunno about the Romans. I can see why you'd suggest Religious, but I really think it'd be hard for me to change their current traits.

	23-10-2002 21:42									#19
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My limited knowledge of history tells me that perhaps the Germans would be more "realistic" if their traits were Militaristic and Industrious rather than Militaristic and Scientific. The Scientific trait makes a lot of sense too, I admit, but if I were to choose one, it would be Industrious. This is probably the civ in my mind that really deserves having 3 traits, if such a thing wouldn't break game balance.


Dominae

	23-10-2002 22:45									#20
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Sorry, double post

Last edited by Tiberius on 23-10-2002 at 22:54

	23-10-2002 22:46									#21
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Damn, tripple post.

You know the story: "The server is busy ...please wait..."

Last edited by Tiberius on 23-10-2002 at 22:56

	23-10-2002 22:50									#22
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Dry, all what you've said could be said about many other civs in the world: good engineers, great bridge builders, etc, ,etc. But were they industrious in the time of Joan? I don't think so.
France being industrious while the germans or the romans not, is a joke, IMO.

I'm not saying that I can't play the game with industrious french or some other more or less stange traits/civs. The fact is that the game is fun and this is more important than historical accuracy.

	24-10-2002 05:49									#23
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I think that overall I could find some reason to give nearly any civ every trait. Firaxis tried to choose two that best represented the Civ and ensured game balance. Not only are you looking at Civ traits from your own perspective (so your concept of "best" might be different) but you are not looking at gameplay balance either.

If I asked each person in America: "What two traits describe Americans? Militaristic, Scientific, Industrious, Expansionistic, Religious, or Commercial?" I would get a plethora of different answers. What is "most appropriate" is something that the game developers must decide, while bearing strategy in mind... I see nothing wrong with their choices.

	24-10-2002 07:53									#24
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I think that overall I could find some reason to give nearly any civ every trait. Firaxis tried to choose two that best represented the Civ and ensured game balance. Not only are you looking at Civ traits from your own perspective (so your concept of "best" might be different) but you are not looking at gameplay balance either. If I asked each person in America: "What two traits describe Americans? Militaristic, Scientific, Industrious, Expansionistic, Religious, or Commercial?" I would get a plethora of different answers. What is "most appropriate" is something that the game developers must decide, while bearing strategy in mind... I see nothing wrong with their choices.

i'm sorry, dude, but people in the non electronic games industry have been comin up with historically accurate, playable, fun strategy games for over 30 years now. a little historical reaserch/knowledge coupled with a good sense of game balance does not take a rocket scientist. in fact, you cannot seperate historical context from civ 3 - its a game about history.......

if a good strategy game is all you want, good for you, but i'm shocked at the laziness and ignorance of the designers that have dropped this misinformation on people. seriously, one competant historical expert/consultant could have been hired. what i find utterly amazing is that the folks who can put together as complex a package as this cannot do a little homework on the context. i mean, if your ok with this, good for you, but for me, if i want to playy a simple ahistorical strategy game i could get risk. civ should be more than that.

and balance would have been maintained.

as far as that goes, i have serious issues with a few other things i've heard about ptw design choices. for one, the choice of sipahi as ottoman UU. janisary would have been best. sipahi?

ah......if i were only ignorant.............

	24-10-2002 08:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by bigvic i'm sorry, dude, but people in the non electronic games industry have been comin up with historically accurate, playable, fun strategy games for over 30 years now.

No, they haven't. I can't think of any broad (not one single war, ie. Napaleonic war game or somesuch) strategy game that has perfect historical realism. It can't be done. Even if it could be done, Sid made it very clear he emphasized gameplay over realism, and has done so in every Civ title.

Oh, and as for the "30 years" bit... sorry man, but Steve Jobs built the first PC in 1976, or 26 years ago. Check your dates.

quote: if a good strategy game is all you want, good for you,

Yep, that's all I want.

quote: but i'm shocked at the laziness and ignorance of the designers that have dropped this misinformation on people. seriously, one competant historical expert/consultant could have been hired.

Ehhh... so, rather than a conscious desicion on their part to make the game as they did, now they did it out of ignorance? Seriously, you're joking, right? Bigvic, see Sid's above comment... the're designing a game, they aren't writing a college history thesis.

quote: what i find utterly amazing is that the folks who can put together as complex a package as this cannot do a little homework on the context.

"Cannot" or "decided not to?" Which seems more likely to you?

quote: i mean, if your ok with this, good for you,

thanks

quote: but for me, if i want to playy a simple ahistorical strategy game i could get risk. civ should be more than that.

It is. It's a much better game than risk. I don't care about perfect, or even near perfect historical accuracy.

	24-10-2002 09:04									#26
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cyclotron, steve jobs had nothing to do with companies like avalon hill, a NON (let me emphasize that again) NON - computer game company. they came up with sometimes incredibly complex strategy/tactical games that would be considerably less complex if converted to computer format and therefore more playable. they did their homework, almost always, even in the shoddiest examples, managed to come up with material more historically accurate than civ3.

the game designerrs made a concious decision to be ignorant? hmmm....

don't get me wrong - i respect your opinion and understand your interest in the game, but i assure you they could have injected a bit more historical authenticity into the game and still had a great, playable fun product. its exactly this kind of intellectual laziness that perpetuates the average schmuk's lack of knowledge about his/her past, therefore it rather irks me.

by the way, i've noticed you are awfully defensive about firaxis - whats up, bucking for a job or something?

no offense, really

	24-10-2002 09:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by bigvic the game designerrs made a concious decision to be ignorant? hmmm....

You don't understand. I mean that, they aren't ignorant, they simply made a conscious decision to make the game not completely historically accurate.

quote: don't get me wrong - i respect your opinion and understand your interest in the game, but i assure you they could have injected a bit more historical authenticity into the game and still had a great, playable fun product. its exactly this kind of intellectual laziness that perpetuates the average schmuk's lack of knowledge about his/her past, therefore it rather irks me.

I can't be entirely certain that any balance of gameplay and realism is the best one. Did Civ3 sacrafice realism for gameplay? Vice versa? I don't really know what the optimal balance is, but I am sure there is a balance, and Civ3 has hit it close enough for me.

Don't get me wrong; I love history. I dropped electives to take more history in high school. History is grand. But I don't expect my games to be historically perfect, because they are games and I believe perfect realism borders on the anal-retentive.

Could they have "injected" more history into Civ3? Yes. But unless it adds gameplay, I don't care. It ends up costing me more money and taking more time to come out. A certain threshold of realism is necessary, but I think that that has been 75% or so achieved by Civ3. Even so, the areas of realism I am interested in aren't the ones you appear to be... so maybe they should just keep it the way it is.

quote: by the way, i've noticed you are awfully defensive about firaxis - whats up, bucking for a job or something? no offense, really

lol, none taken. Actually, I'd be saying this about any computer game company. The value (or lack thereof) I place in realism has nothing to do with the company producing the game; I'm not so much defending Firaxis as that.

If I could get a job at Firaxis, I wouldn't be posting here.

	24-10-2002 09:41									#28
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Spooky. Parts of my post on page one turned red without me editing it.

EDIT: Now it's back to normal again. At times, Poly scares me.

	24-10-2002 09:57									#29
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Warring States Period?? That's gotta be the most atypical part of Chinese history. It's the last era when China actually behaved like Europe (i.e. disjointed little states). After 221 BC, Chinese political philosophy was totally and utterly based on unity and empire. Even when China did dissolute into "warring states" after that, the independent warring states were obsessed with "reunification" and not at all concerned with "conquest".

So, scientific and industrious would work perfectly.

	24-10-2002 14:16									#30
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China is indeed a country of science (I didn't hear anyone argue that.) They are certainly not religious or expansionistic. Commercial could go, but not really defendable if you see how isolationistic they were. Concerning militaristic, I don't see why they should be. Industrious...... ok, well I that is the best option. It doesn't really reflect the Confucianism, but it is the best deal we can make here.