23-10-2002 11:32									#1
	POW's, Refugees, and the Issue of Slavery: or, What to do with captured workers? Inflate your Upload Space

Let me start out by saying that I hate captured foreign workers. They work at cross-purposes to my own objectives in every way. Whether it's a worker captured on the field of battle, or the surviving populace of another enmey city I have just sacked and razed, the effects of these units are in every way detrimental to my civilization as a whole.

• As slave labor, they work at half pace, they malinger, and at times, they are even blamed for sabotage... (Aside: wouldn't it be cool if captured workers did occasionally perform acts of sabotage? Think: The French Resistance in WWII... )
  

• As new citizens of my vastly superior civilization, they are relocated to one of my many "workers' paradise" cities. They are the (undeserved) beneficiaries of millenia of cultural developments as well as many luxuries and entertainments, all designed to control ( ah, umm exalt, yeah, that's it...exalt ) the masses, yet they still complain. At times the foreign element protests so loudly that they attract other malcontents and misfits, and instigate the rest of the otherwise peaceable (and productive ) citizenry into open revolt, delaying production schedules and requiring further expense in coin and productivity to placate the unruly crowds.
  

• As if that weren't enough, captured foreigners consume resources like any other unit or citizen in my society. As workers, I'm out one GP per turn (each) despite the reduced work output. As citizens, I must provide two food per turn (each) to prevent general starvation. (does anybody know if the foreigners are the first to go hungry? )
  

Tell us something we don't know, Bob...

So, all this brings me to my point. To make a long story short... (too late ) In my current game (AU Mod, Random Map), I am the Chinese. I am in the process of rolling over the Egyptians with my Horde of Riders. Only Cleopatra shares a my small continent. Our lands are is rich with resources, and I covet my neighbor's goods.

The AI, in its magnificent ineptitude, has chosen city locations that are so painfully bad, that I, as a true and incurable perfectionist , cannot tolerate trying to make them work myself. I would rather start over. So, I have been razing each Egyptian city as I capture it. They have no Wonders, and the largest city was size 8 anyway...

This has left me with a major overabundance of captured workers. My own territory has been almost completely overworked by my own workers. Most of my cities approach or have reached size 12, and those that don't have issues that the addition of a hostile foreign worker as population won't help at all...

I am barely holding my own in tech, and have been looking for every advantage in my diplomatic negotiations. Remembering that you can trade workers to other civilizations if they are located in your capitol, I have sent every captured Egyptian worker directly there...

And then, I had an idea... If I am not mistaken, a civilization cannot refuse a gift offered by another. whether or not that gift may be ultimately harmful.

So, with all this in mind... what do you think would be the result of a massive deportation of these refugees and POW's to another nation? If I were to force feed say, 15-25 or even 50-60 successive waves of boat people to my dear and trusted neighbor, do you think the potential combined negative impact might, in the near-future, tip the balance in my favor over any immediate benefit they may gain? Given the performance of the Automate Worker AI choices, I doubt my (AI) opponent will use these "free" workers to their full potential...

Question : I know the halved production for workers carries over to the new civ, but does the assimilation period for new citizens equally apply, or are they instantly absorbed into the dominant culture?

At any rate, the impact should be suitably impressive in either case. The very minimum result is that my oppnent(s) will be instantly out one GP for each and every worker I send. The drain on their economy alone could potentially reach into the low hundreds as I continue to send unwanted immigrants to their overcrowded shores.

Additionally, If they choose to add them as population to their cities (does the AI do this?), they suffer (in theory??? ) from the negative consequences of the cultural assimilation period. Certainly so if they are at war with the civ whose refugee population they are recieving. Strategic use of diplomacy to goad the civ in question into war before flooding their borders should be particularly effective here.

Finally, the kicker is:

As I turn my military wrath towards my unwilling benefactor(s), I should be able to scoop up most, if not all, of the workers I have previously given away as I conquer their territory. Additionally, I will gain new foreign workers as each of their cities fall. The impact on my next target will be even more profound, until finally, I predict I shall be able to inflict DEATH BY OVERPOPULATION!!!

I'll try it in my current game and report back...but meanwhile, what do you think, could it work?


-Bob

Last edited by Juggler_Bob on 23-10-2002 at 11:56

	23-10-2002 13:14									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Cute idea, but from everything I've read, slaves do NOT cost gold to keep up. Thus, in terms of cost, they are the most efficient work force possible. As for the laziness, what do you expect for free?

Nathan

	23-10-2002 15:01									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Cute idea, but from everything I've read, slaves do NOT cost gold to keep up. Thus, in terms of cost, they are the most efficient work force possible. As for the laziness, what do you expect for free? Nathan

FREE!!??!
Except for having to move twice as many (I don't do any of that Auto crap except for SHIFT-P (pollution)), and they take twice the room in my transports (per work unit).

Juggler_Bob,
While I would not want to deprive you of your own experience, basically your brainstorm is not sound.
One of the main problems the AI usually has is they do not have enough workers. Your giving them no-maintenance (albiet half-strength) workers ...

	24-10-2002 01:51									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think it could only work if all the workers were originally from the civ that you're sending them too, in which case they should (should meaning that I assume the AI would have to pay for its own workers if you send them back) have all the extra costs you suggest. Whether or not it would be worth while is another question. For one thing, the AI typically could use some workers, and, for another, if, for some reason, it didn't need these workers, it could simply disband them. I could only see this working if it was a civ you had already invaded so that you would have a bunch of their workers and that they would be small enough that the extra gpt cost would really hurt them AND they didn't disband any. But if you've already invaded and taken enough workers for this to be effective then you can probably run them over anyway.

	24-10-2002 15:44									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If I get a lot of slaves, I add my regular workers to cities and use only the no-cost labour. Sure, the lazy suckers work at only half the rate, but when automated and used in stacks, that should not be a problem.

You could also use them as prebuilds for something you will rush buy. They only give one or two shields when disbanded (can't remember which) but one single shield in a prebuild will reduce the buying cost to half.

If you have them in huge numbers you could disband them in a palace prebuild for a wonder. If you enter a wonder race later than the AI, this trick could help you to catch up (this also goes for obsolete units like swordsmen and cavallery). See them as landfill making up the fundament of the wonder, like the millions of workers who are buried under the Great Wall.

I have tried to sell slaves to the AI but it did not work. It was only possible to sell my own workers, but who wants to do that? Has anyone else sold workers (your own or captured)?

	24-10-2002 15:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Maybe it would be nice if you could get the slaves to boost your cities food/shield production for every turn you order them to do so... Any thoughts on this?

	24-10-2002 16:33									#7
	Tired of ads?

Uhm, Beren, besides outright canabalism, no....

Anyway, Bob, since these slaves cost nothing, you should just keep them until you've killed the egyptians. Then you can put them in you cities without any hassel once you have hospitals enough. And as long as they are there they might as well work.

Does anyone know if when another civ gives you some of it's workers (in trade for a tech for example) are they also slaves (which work less and piss off the other civ) or just workers? This is important because I frequently buy them from other civs. And for humanitarian rasons, what kind of nation would sell their own proletariat into slave labour for some luxuries?

	25-10-2002 00:32									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

On having to move a bazillion workers, I currently have a stack of about 24 slaves just on my home continent.

I keep them Garrisoned on "Elite Hill", my vacation home for Elite units that are not currently needed for war.

Whenever pollution breaks out, Wake All and use the 'J' key to move all of them to the first polluted square, Shift+C until the pollution is gone(usually 4-6) and move the rest of the stack to the next spot, ad infinitum - with railroads, I can clean up to 8 polluted squares on any given turn, assuming I also reassign some of my own workers.


The stack movement is your friend. Plus, I've kept around an old Galleon just for the purpose of ferrying workers - sure, it's half as fast, but I don't slow down troop movement by taking slots in a transport. And if I am going to war, I can plan ahead on getting the worker transportation started, so I lose very little time in transit.

I love my little slaves, though I wish there was another use for them besides same-turn pollution work.

	25-10-2002 12:55									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The 'J' key rocks, but 'Shift-P' rocks even more.

	25-10-2002 13:18									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I use workers to fill holes in my borders while I'm waiting for my culture to expand. Keeps those trespassing settlers out.

Here's an extreme example from an OCC game (where I only build 1 city)

Attachment: civ3 worker zoc.jpg
This has been downloaded 52 time(s).

	28-10-2002 12:30									#11
	Support Apolyton

The quickest way you can expand your borders is by founding cities, a city on the river up there between the dyes and the aluminium should do very well so close to your capital.

	28-10-2002 12:46									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

He can't found any cities as it is an OCC game. That is why he is trying to hold the land and prevent anyone else from planting a city as that would reduce the culture border and cost him the lux.