24-10-2002 08:01									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

re the observation of different combat results at different levels.

This is actually true, vs barbs. Civ units get combat advantages vs barbs. Larger advantages at lower levels, 0 at Deity. So Gunter's observation could be somewhat based on fact (but backwards).

	24-10-2002 08:13									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Dominae By "play the game on your own terms" I mean that most of your decisions are based on preference, rather than necessity. For example, playing a pure builder strategy is a preference, and is very difficult to pull off on any level higher than Monarch. Dominae

I'm gonna have to disagree with that last part. I typically play warless games at deity. I'm only at war if the AI chooses to attack me, and I don't really attack back (limited to only taking back my old cities and I defend offensively, if you know what I mean).

	24-10-2002 08:28									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Regent. Not ready to move up yet. I still have so much to learn.

	24-10-2002 09:03									#34
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I'm gonna have to disagree with that last part. I typically play warless games at deity. I'm only at war if the AI chooses to attack me, and I don't really attack back (limited to only taking back my old cities and I defend offensively, if you know what I mean).

How do you win?

Hm, maybe I should make myself a little clearer: do you win via Space Race, or Diplomatic victory, or Culture, or what?


Dominae

	24-10-2002 10:26									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well what does warless really mean. I have played games that you are at war most of the time and never start any of them, so does that make it a warless game? I men, they will attack sooner or later and if you do not agree to peace, it can last as long as you like. You can get them to start a war very easy, especial after ou get espionage. I guess if you do not increase you holding by war that may be one thing.

	24-10-2002 10:28									#36
	Inflate your Upload Space

I can not say you must fight at the highest level as I have never tried to win with out it. I know you can doing an OCC type or even a modified version. Just being stronger is not enough to keep them from coming for you though, you will have to be able to make deal, especiall offering lux trades to stay friendly.

	24-10-2002 15:57									#37
	Suffering from ads?

I am playing emperor, but I have a hard time keeping up in tech. Plus it is frustrating how little respect the AI have for me at this level. Even when I kicked their butt they still don't treat me with respect.....

I've noticed that smaller maps suit me better on this level, because otherwise the AI can expand too much....

	24-10-2002 15:59									#38
	Suffering from ads?

I have tried Deity a couple times, but the advantages the AI gets are really big. They get an extra settler to start with. That gives them a big headstart. Too big for me to cope with at this moment.....

	24-10-2002 16:52									#39
	Put an end to popups!

I have done some confusion in level names but I'm pretty sure about what I have said.

Of course my tests were not taken only from 3 battles,but I can say so:

IMO raising the level of diffuculty the AI cheats like this:

Every tests is done on the same terrain and with same experience of units involved.

If you try a....let's say a swordsman vs a spearmen in easier level you can note you have success more or less 50% times,that BTW attacking with 3 and defending with 2 with no terrain penalties it should be more than 50%

If you repeat the experiment for dozens times you will notice ,at higher levels , that the percentgage lower,I mean the swordsman can win 30-40% instead of 50% at easier levels.

What do you think about :

1) with no terrain penalties why a factor 3 attacking unit wins only 50% vs a factor 2 defending one?

2) why the possibilities of win lower while raising in level?

Thanks

Gunter

	24-10-2002 17:01									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Gunter, your experiment is well-described, but I don't think you've actually tried it, at least enough times to draw any meaningful (statistically significant) conclusions. Let your Swordsman attack a Spearman at least 100 times on Deity, tally the results, and come back with your observations. Simply stating that you think combat is tougher on Deity doesn't make it so.

In any case, Firaxis' assurance that the AI doesn't get combat bonuses is enough for me.


Dominae

	24-10-2002 17:15									#41
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have done the experiment for about 20 times only each,and maybe these are too few times to obtain a real statistic,as you said.

I'll give it a try a I'll let you know results.

The strange thing,and I believe it's not only my feeling,that in Civ 1 & 2 I have never had this feeling,now I have it often,but as I said it's only a " feeling " not a real statistics.

Or maybe I'm getting older.....

Cheers

Gunter

	24-10-2002 17:31									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Gunter I have done the experiment for about 20 times only each,and maybe these are too few times to obtain a real statistic,as you said. The strange thing,and I believe it's not only my feeling,that in Civ 1 & 2 I have never had this feeling,now I have it often,but as I said it's only a " feeling " not a real statistics.

Gunter, 20 times really is NOT enough... 100 times would be better... anyway, the probability count (or, the RNG) works for large numbers only.

Your "feeling" probably comes from the fact that randomness was much lower in Civ2. The concept of firepower actually made the combat results way more predictable than in Civ3. In Civ3, you will suffer suprising defeats from time to time... AND victories, TOO. Just that the human nature is to ignore/forget what worked for him (the unexpected victories) and remember only what made him feel like smashing the monitor (the unexpected defeats)...

Believe me, if the AI really cheated combat-wise on higher levels, someone would have surely noticed and proven the fact already... the game has been out for almost a year now.

	24-10-2002 18:19									#43
	Suffering from ads?

AND victories, TOO. Just that the human nature is to ignore/forget what worked for him (the unexpected victories) and remember only what made him feel like smashing the monitor (the unexpected defeats)...

I think you are right in this consideration.

Infact I'm manging to buy a rubber monitor..

Gunter

	24-10-2002 18:46									#44
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Gunter Infact I'm manging to buy a rubber monitor.. Gunter

Hmm, let me know if you find one. Or a rubber keyboard

	24-10-2002 18:47									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

About combat propabilities:

Once I built a veteran battleship. I straight away went to attack a Greek veteran Fregate with it (not bombard - straight foward to-kill attack). I won, barely, with only one hitpoint left. That was some tough Fregate.

Has anyone lost a battleship when attacking fregates?

	24-10-2002 18:49									#46
	Tired of ads?

quote: Or a rubber keyboard

Those actually do exist. We have them at work, in the mobile testing labs. They need computers outdoors - testing bridges, light-houses and other humid places.

They do exist. But I'm not so sure about rubber monitors...

	24-10-2002 18:55									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey, I want one!!! I could hit my keyboard instead of my monitor! I admit it is not as satisfying as slapping the screen, but still, very refreshing

	24-10-2002 18:56									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by aaglo Once I built a veteran battleship. I straight away went to attack a Greek veteran Fregate with it (not bombard - straight foward to-kill attack). I won, barely, with only one hitpoint left. That was some tough Fregate. Has anyone lost a battleship when attacking fregates?

Bah... frigate... I lost my battleship to a galley! It was a badly damaged veteran battleship (1hp) and veteran or elite (not sure) galley at full health. I thought, ok, only 1hp... but Jesus, it's just a galley! Then, I must have laughed... what happened was just so funny!

	24-10-2002 19:04									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think Firaxis should include a disclaimer in civ3's license agreement:

In no event will Firaxis be liable for any damages caused to the player's monitor while playing civ3. We strongly recomand that players should buy a rubber monitor and/or keyboard to avoid unpleasant consequences while playing the game

	24-10-2002 19:20									#50
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I think Firaxis should include a disclaimer in civ3's license agreement: In no event will Firaxis be liable for any damages caused to the player's monitor while playing civ3. We strongly recomand that players should buy a rubber monitor and/or keyboard to avoid unpleasant consequences while playing the game

Yep,indeed !

Othewise some boxing gloves could do the same

	24-10-2002 19:28									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I play mostly at emperor (if I have time to play, that is), with few sidetracks in the two adjacent levels. For instance, right now I have a nice monarch challenge on an icy island (see strategy forum), trying to prove that an experienced player always can beat monarch.

	24-10-2002 19:32									#52
	Full PM-box? Change here!

diety, although i loose over 80% of my games. i prefer the challenge to winning.

never managed to beat the AI at diety on a tiny map. on small only once and on standard fairly often...

edited for corrections in text

	24-10-2002 19:38									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf never managed to beat the AI at diety on a tiny map. on small only once and on standard fairly often...

On tiny maps it's all about military tactics in early wars. Try a duel (only 2 civs) on a tiny 80% water pangea, that are good training conditions. If you got the touch to it, add another civ, and then another one and you're there .

	24-10-2002 19:50									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ah, well i always play with all or all-1 civs, so on tiny that's 4-5 oponents. on diety they have iirc 4 defensive, 2 offensive, 2 workers and 2 settlers... i don't have a chance in a rush against these forces (except in very very lucky conditions, e.g. when my scout found 2 settlers and 2 warriors (upgraded to swordsmen))

can you beat the AI on tiny maps with the max. possible civ-amount?

	24-10-2002 20:23									#55
	Got spare money?

I see I'm the only one without a logo beside my name.

Could you please tell me the procedure to achieve this target?

I have just started again to play Civ 3 since 1 year and I'm just starting to talk like ...the game !

Propose a deal:

Do you want to excange your tech data about to post a logo with my girl-friend territory map ?

Gunter

	24-10-2002 20:28									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

@ Gunther:

all you want to know

Now, give me that map!!!

	24-10-2002 21:42									#57
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf ah, well i always play with all or all-1 civs, so on tiny that's 4-5 oponents. on diety they have iirc 4 defensive, 2 offensive, 2 workers and 2 settlers... i don't have a chance in a rush against these forces (except in very very lucky conditions, e.g. when my scout found 2 settlers and 2 warriors (upgraded to swordsmen)) can you beat the AI on tiny maps with the max. possible civ-amount?

Tiny maps have a default of max. 3 opponents (unless modded).

And I wouldn't say, that I can beat the AI on deity on tiny maps. I did it, for instance in the "1337" challenge, but on many other tries I failed. But I don't play much on deity, maybe I'm not masochist enough.

	24-10-2002 22:32									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I seem to recall that firaxis as said that no change to the combat resolution occur for the level of the game. The imposition is for combat with barbs, that is effected by level.
Dominae's point is well taken, you would need thousands of runs to make any meaninful conclusions. I am no statistican, but I would think standard deviation would allow for some fairly good size runs of observation that are way out of the norm.

	24-10-2002 22:54									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae How do you win? Hm, maybe I should make myself a little clearer: do you win via Space Race, or Diplomatic victory, or Culture, or what? Dominae

I've won all of those ways. I've been in situations where I was forced to build the spaceship, and the like. Now that's exciting.

	24-10-2002 22:59									#60
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well what does warless really mean. I have played games that you are at war most of the time and never start any of them, so does that make it a warless game? I men, they will attack sooner or later and if you do not agree to peace, it can last as long as you like. You can get them to start a war very easy, especial after ou get espionage. I guess if you do not increase you holding by war that may be one thing.

Warless, when I say it, means I don't start wars and I don't take cities. I don't sign MPP's or alliances, so I can't make the AI fight each other for me. I only take cities if I founded them. I try to stop wars if I can (I'll sign a peace treaty for free, but I won't (necessarily) pay for one). I won't give up stuff to prevent a war, unless I deem it prudent. I build, build, build. Random civ, so what I build first depends, but I almost always expand with tons settlers ASAP, undefended (<-- will not work in MP).