25-10-2002 00:19									#61
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Ghengis,

You're usually a very reasonable guy and I normally agree with your opinions, but on this you seem to be so bullheaded that you'd rather we NOT have a war (golden age, control of saltpeter, unified nation, etc) if it's not exactly to your liking.

Compromise, my friend. Compromise.

While I also wish this nation wasn't so soft and peaceloving and guilt-ridden about our history of victories and conquests, I understand (as does Aggie) that our job as ministers is to follow through with the wishes of the people. If the majority of the people aren't in favor of total war, we don't do total war.

Nearly half the people don't want war at all. Those on the fence went with this war because of the Golden Age aspects and the promise that it would be kept short. Very few people support the notion of total conquest of the French.

What bothers me is that you don't truely believe that not going to war is better than having a limited war. You're just trying to sabatage Aggie's plans.

--Togas

	25-10-2002 00:33									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Ghengis, You're usually a very reasonable guy and I normally agree with your opinions, but on this you seem to be so bullheaded that you'd rather we NOT have a war (golden age, control of saltpeter, unified nation, etc) if it's not exactly to your liking. Compromise, my friend. Compromise.

They changed the goal of the poll after I voted. Until Aggie OFFICIALY retracts his statement on a limited war I'm going to continue campaigning against it. I DID NOT vote for a limited war, I voted for a war plain and simple. I will not have people twisting my vote into a something it was not intended to support.

I believe a complete victory or partial victory should have been debated AFTER the war was in progress not before the declaration vote was over.

quote: While I also wish this nation wasn't so soft and peaceloving and guilt-ridden about our history of victories and conquests, I understand (as does Aggie) that our job as ministers is to follow through with the wishes of the people. If the majority of the people aren't in favor of total war, we don't do total war. Nearly half the people don't want war at all. Those on the fence went with this war because of the Golden Age aspects and the promise that it would be kept short. Very few people support the notion of total conquest of the French.

I believe more people support total war than partial war, and it will be even more obvious once we have achieved the initial objectives. We are a war-hungry civ as Aggie had 70% support BEFORE he backed down and gave in to the pacifists.

quote: What bothers me is that you don't truely believe that not going to war is better than having a limited war. You're just trying to sabatage Aggie's plans.

Aggie already sabotaged his own plans. His pre war plan called for total conquest, he will now have to redo his attack plans by his own choice. I'm just irritated that he changed the purpose of my vote AFTER I voted.

	25-10-2002 00:42									#63
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I believe a complete victory or partial victory should have been debated AFTER the war was in progress not before the declaration vote was over.

This is entirely contrary to sensible military strategic planning... it is always better to determine the objective FIRST and THEN devise a war plan to match that objective. To declare war BEFORE wondering what you're actually going to do in the war is inviting both potential problems in fighting the war due to lack of planning and lack of defined goals AS WELL AS an invitation for public opposition on the basis of unclear war goals.

Aggie has very wisely anticipated public uneasiness about a full elimination of France and has changed plans. However, I would agree with GhengisFarb that we don't know FOR SURE yet where exactly different proportions of people stand on the issue of war aims.

Personally, I would support the posting of a poll asking what war aims people would support.

	25-10-2002 00:42									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb They changed the goal of the poll after I voted. Until Aggie OFFICIALY retracts his statement on a limited war I'm going to continue campaigning against it. I DID NOT vote for a limited war, I voted for a war plain and simple. I will not have people twisting my vote into a something it was not intended to support.

The goal of the poll is simply to allow for declaration of war, anything beyond that is opinion, nothing reguarding the actual poll.

Should we go to war, there SHOULD BE A SECOND POLL deciding how long/total the war is to be. But, first thing first, we must declare war before we can vote/decide to annihilate a nation.

	25-10-2002 00:42									#65
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Unortho and I posted at the same time to propose that we should have a second poll

	25-10-2002 00:46									#66
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Ghengis here is a solution that will please you. Remember this war will not start at LEAST until the following chat after this next one. We will probably get to our goals during this chat. After the war poll is over you can have a poll on whether we want a limited war or not. If there is overwhelming support for total war(which I think is unlikely) that could have an effect. However I suspect the results will not be to your liking and will simply confirm the decision for a limited war. When in decided to support the limited poll.In this poll all the people who had reason for either way can present.
Aggie

	25-10-2002 00:51									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Ok in response to all, I have after much consultation and analyzis decided that I will limit this war to the eastern and se cities of france. This seems to be the center of gravity of the people views so I'll take support it. Additionally I have been informed by another minister that the extra cities would adversly affect our corruption. So I will support a limited war, also this will allow us to extort GPT from france and in the future perhaps we can use them as a GL factory. Aggie

This is the only thing I have a problem with and Aggie is refusing to retract it.

It technically alters the result of the poll. This is a change from the initial question of the poll and does not follow the warplan Aggie posted.

It created an entirely different situation from what had been discussed and voted on. Where is the new warplan? Currently we appear to have switched objectives with no forethought or preparation.

	25-10-2002 00:53									#68
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Poll on character of war should have at least the following options, and should probably allow multiple selections:

1. Total War : Wipe out France

2. Take up to _____ no matter what and declare peace then if possible.

3. Take up to _____ but try to stop short if we'd have to fight the French main army in order to complete these objectives.

4. No war with France at all.

(Edited for clarity.)

Last edited by joncnunn on 25-10-2002 at 01:05

	25-10-2002 00:58									#69
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joncnunn... the poll should mention the goal of achieving a GA

	25-10-2002 01:02									#70
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That would be redundant because there's already an active poll on the question of should we have our Golden Age during the French War.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos joncnunn... the poll should mention the goal of achieving a GA

	25-10-2002 01:12									#71
	Hmm. Support Apolyton

Are we really ready to take advantage of a golden age? It seems not more than 10 or 15 turns ago when we were at war with America, we didn't want a golden age to begin since our infastructure wasn't ready. Has that much actually changed that we are ready to "fully" take advantage of a golden age? Granted we have some courthouses and cathedrals here and there, but the newly aquired areas of Persia still need a lot of work.

Also, we want to prevent France from getting musketeers and getting stronger. Fine. Do we need war? What ever happened to my "lazy worker" strategy where I suggested sending a worker to sit on top of the saltpeter tile. That would effectively prevent them from having saltpeter?

Granted my arguments aren't the strongest in the world, but I do not support war at the moment.

	25-10-2002 01:19									#72
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WhiteBandit, having units inside French territory at the end of a turn without a Right of Passage results in rep hits.

On the Golden Age, I voted yes for the Golden Age then, so I'm not inconsitant in still wanting it.

	25-10-2002 01:42									#73
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Are we really ready to take advantage of a golden age? It seems not more than 10 or 15 turns ago when we were at war with America, we didn't want a golden age to begin since our infastructure wasn't ready. Has that much actually changed that we are ready to "fully" take advantage of a golden age? Granted we have some courthouses and cathedrals here and there, but the newly aquired areas of Persia still need a lot of work. Also, we want to prevent France from getting musketeers and getting stronger. Fine. Do we need war? What ever happened to my "lazy worker" strategy where I suggested sending a worker to sit on top of the saltpeter tile. That would effectively prevent them from having saltpeter?

I am NO to a limited war.

YES to complete conquest.

I want to trade the saltpeter now while it is at its peak in value.

And WhiteBandit needs to talk to Donegal because he was feeling unloved the other day.

	25-10-2002 02:26									#74
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This poll is still the war poll and is valid.
Aggie

	25-10-2002 02:47									#75
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Poll on character of war should have at least the following options, and should probably allow multiple selections: 1. Total War : Wipe out France 2. Take up to _____ no matter what and declare peace then if possible. 3. Take up to _____ but try to stop short if we'd have to fight the French main army in order to complete these objectives. 4. No war with France at all. (Edited for clarity.)

A poll with no war as an option would be a repoll, and as such would be invalid if challanged. Unless of course you start it 3 weeks after this one ends.

	25-10-2002 02:58									#76
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easily carried it to victory? I'm not sure. All I can say is that it's lucky the CoL was really vague about this, and didn't require 2\3rds.

	25-10-2002 03:25									#77
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Since the poll currently says 63% wants war, it seems the average (50th percentile), probably wants a limited war.

The most efficent war would get us saltpeter and iron for us & sale and safe borders, then we could focus on building city improvements.

A GA might be a better idea after FP and Democracy.

Last edited by realpolitic on 25-10-2002 at 03:50

	25-10-2002 04:18									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Ok in response to all, I have after much consultation and analyzis decided that I will limit this war to the eastern and se cities of france. This seems to be the center of gravity of the people views so I'll take support it. Additionally I have been informed by another minister that the extra cities would adversly affect our corruption. So I will support a limited war, also this will allow us to extort GPT from france and in the future perhaps we can use them as a GL factory. Aggie

Arggh! I want a war with France so badly, but this statement means if I vote yes I will be agreeing to a limited war.

I'm hoping this is removed soon so I can vote yes.

	25-10-2002 04:20									#79
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We can take all of France relatively easily, including Joan's head. But, we need to dedicate more immediately to our own land. This is why I support a short, quick war with France, and it ends there unless we're one spearman away from getting a city. Quickly, before they get musakteers!
(Also the GA sounds nice.)

	25-10-2002 04:36									#80
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I have a couple of questions:

1. what about defense for currently undefended cities. I know about the ERFF in Contagion, but is that by itself can't defend all the currently undefended coastal cities? lets get one musket in two of them at least, rather than potentially defend with an offensive unit.

2. will we still war if they get muskets in their cities before we intend to attack? I dont think there is as much benefit for us in a war if they do

	25-10-2002 04:38									#81
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I went ahead and voted yes, but only for the GA. We should take one (or two) cities in the 5 turns that is required to make peace too though (plus we'll need a win or two to get good peace terms quickly), then make peace with our GA asap. Needless to say we should try to time it so the GA starts as close to the last turn of the war as possible.

	25-10-2002 05:09									#82
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If we want a total Complete conquest of France, then we should wait until the FP is built. If we absorb all of the french cities before the FP is built, It will really jepardize the construction time of the FP through greater Corruption in Contagion.

As we stand now, Contagion has a Corruption/Waste of 63% and the Waste will be reduced to 45% with WLKD. If 5 cities are added (and they will be closer than Contagion, pushing Contagion "back"), The Corruption will be 77% with Waste at 53% with WLKD. If 7 cities are added (leaving France with one city), Corruption will be 82% and Waste will be 57% with WLKD.
If all of France is taken out, 8 more cities will make Contagion's corruption 85% and Waste of 60% (I really love Excel for these things). That would mean an overall increase of 15% to the TOC for the FP, assuming that I can maintain WLKD in the city while the FP is under construction. And that's just for Contagion!

THIS IS WHY I ONLY support a LIMITED war at this time. I would actually rather not have it, but I want the GA to help offset the above corruption effects and to get our Core cties up to a better point, at a faster rate. This is also one of the reason that I posted in the MoIE thread about combineing two of the French Cities (Corruption in Contagion would be 73% and Waste of 51% with WLKD). Once the FP is built, it's a whole different story.

But I want the Resources to sell, I want some of the cities and I'd like to have the money to get some things done. I would like us to be able to do our own research. I want to keep Joan from the possibility of her own GA. I want the GA, plain & simple, the rest is fringe benifits. I can handle some of the additional Corruption effects, but not for the whole mess.

We can further explore any additional terratorial expansion (Germany anyone?) AFTER the FP is completed.

E_T

	25-10-2002 16:36									#83
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Good analysis of corruption E_T, this is definitely something that should be taken into consideration. It could be avoided if we razed the cities , but I don’t see this happening.

Also am I the only one concerned with the 1080L proposed cost of this war? This type of money could go a long way if spent on buildings (like finishing off the Q in Contagion so the FP can be started immediately). Oh well, it seems like it’s a little late to be arguing against this.

	26-10-2002 01:34									#84
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There's always a third option: gift the cities we don't want to someone else, like Greece, Rome, or Russia. Solves our corruption troubles, gives them more corruption and more fringe cities to worry about, and betters relations.

	26-10-2002 06:04									#85
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I like Kloreep's idea.

I support war, even though at heart I am a peaceful builder, because right now the French can say,

Whatever happens we have got
The Saltpetre, and they have not.

Whatever happens we have got
The Musket Gun, and they have not.

If we had any saltpetre, then I would not support war against France because we would then have the necessary resource to defend ourselves against anyone else and also because we would not need to fear a French attack because the Musketeers are a defensive weapon. However, we have no saltpetre, and we need it to build modern units to defend our cities so we can build things in peace.

	26-10-2002 06:21									#86
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We have two sources of saltpeter within our borders, and still we want to take France's sources so that they do not become strong. France has a lot of of border cities on hills, and when defended by fortified musketmen, these cities can turn into nightmares.

	26-10-2002 10:54									#87
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E_T, you rock!

	26-10-2002 15:57									#88
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quote: Originally posted by E_T If we want a total Complete conquest of France, then we should wait until the FP is built. If we absorb all of the french cities before the FP is built, It will really jepardize the construction time of the FP through greater Corruption in Contagion. As we stand now, Contagion has a Corruption/Waste of 63% and the Waste will be reduced to 45% with WLKD. If 5 cities are added (and they will be closer than Contagion, pushing Contagion "back"), The Corruption will be 77% with Waste at 53% with WLKD. If 7 cities are added (leaving France with one city), Corruption will be 82% and Waste will be 57% with WLKD. If all of France is taken out, 8 more cities will make Contagion's corruption 85% and Waste of 60% (I really love Excel for these things). That would mean an overall increase of 15% to the TOC for the FP, assuming that I can maintain WLKD in the city while the FP is under construction. And that's just for Contagion! THIS IS WHY I ONLY support a LIMITED war at this time. I would actually rather not have it, but I want the GA to help offset the above corruption effects and to get our Core cties up to a better point, at a faster rate. This is also one of the reason that I posted in the MoIE thread about combineing two of the French Cities (Corruption in Contagion would be 73% and Waste of 51% with WLKD). Once the FP is built, it's a whole different story. But I want the Resources to sell, I want some of the cities and I'd like to have the money to get some things done. I would like us to be able to do our own research. I want to keep Joan from the possibility of her own GA. I want the GA, plain & simple, the rest is fringe benifits. I can handle some of the additional Corruption effects, but not for the whole mess. We can further explore any additional terratorial expansion (Germany anyone?) AFTER the FP is completed. E_T

Then we should raze our less useful cities starting with New York and San Cortes as they are trying to flip some 6 foreign cities into out empire.

We should burn out cathedrals and temples so we no longer produce culture so as we gain no more cities.

We are trying to gain a lot more than three cities with culture flip. To leave France in the game and all of those French Citizens in our cities hostile and the potential threat of culture flip, and the possibilty of France bringing in allies because they dislike us, and the loss of the Western coast just because we don't need those three cities is a fairly moot argument .

Those French cities can be razed and condensed into a smaller number of cities that are more effective and we'll most likely get those three cities that will effect the corruption line through another route anyway.

	26-10-2002 21:16									#89
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I would like to point out that France (in the 770 save) is now building a road to their saltpeter source.

	26-10-2002 21:28									#90
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The Declaration of War is hereby approved by the people of apolyton and I will give orders accordingly. We will launch an attack no later than 810 and possibly earlier if possible. Thank you for your support in making such a great decision.
Aggie