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Thud
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Proud to be an American
Jul 2002
time: 00:23
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The Apolytonian Enlightenment Movement is dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal; that each man has the right to life, liberty, and property; that the press should be free to speak whatever it wishes; that the people can elect a just government to protect these rights; and that unprovoked aggression is morally wrong and unacceptable.
Any Apolytonian that finds enlightenment may join in the hope that his ideals will one day soon be reflected in all of Apolytonian society and government.
Members:
Thud
Shiber
Dejon
AdamTG02
Jdjdjd
Arnelos
Civman2000
Last edited by Thud on 24-10-2002 at 07:37
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Donegeal
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Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer. Founder of the Glory of War, Champions of Apolyton!
Jul 2002
time: 05:23
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I remember seeing a quote from someones posts that say "Being responsible means pissing people off". This is true. Please remember this when reading this post.
This is all fine and dandy, but not pratical. As a public servant in real life I have come to the determination that the general public is stupid. Yes, thats harsh, but I would like (yes I do want to be wrong about this) someone to prove me wrong. Please.. go to a local city counsil meeting. Its ridiculous! Civilians always wanting something from the government, but refusing to pay for it in taxes. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie!
The problem with "enlightenment" is that people will always do what is best for themselves (its a survival instinct) and not what is best for the community.
To gather a further knowledge of what I'm talking about, please read "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein. NOTE THAT I SAID READ, NOT WATCH, as the only thing incommon between the book and the movie are the names of the characters.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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GETTING BACK TO THE TOPIC OF OUR ENLIGHTENMENT MOVEMENT:
Unortho and others have proposed that Apolytonia should wholeheartedly embrace a completely jingoistic view ourselves and the world... and follow it with imperialism.
There are two different takes that an enlightenment movement can take on this development:
1. We can (as historically took place in RL) at least partially JOIN this pro-imperialism movement on the grounds that we would be "spreading the merits of civiliation" to the uncultured masses of the rest of the world. The serious flaw with this argument, however, is that we are currently inferior in technological terms and such an argument likely would have to wait until we rightly became the center of science rather than a periphery backwater of it.
2. The enlightenment movement can, as various 18th and especially 19th century liberals did in RL, OPPOSE the imperialism movement on the grounds that it is a usurpation of the rights of man, most especially the right to self-governance. This argument will undoubtedly take on additional force with the advent of "nationalism", a belief that historically was actually TIED TO LIBERALISM in the pursuit of unitary self determination for occupied or divided peoples (Belgium, Hungary, Bohemia, Poland, the Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc, etc, etc). As such, we could forcefully argue, as such great men as William Gladstone and Mr. Campbell-Bannerman did during the late 19th Century, that imperialism is a moral wrong.
Either is a posibility and, indeed, it is even possible that the "liberal" or "enlightenment" movement will split itself in two over the issue (as indeed took place historically...).
However, it is something we could begin to discuss...
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ruby_maser
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Fear sunshine!
Sep 2002
time: 23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Thud
Just doubting whether ones education would be totally complete with some american public high schools. They're okay, but they're over-stretched, over-burdened, and frankly not effective in getting through to the 'average' teenager.
Our culture is not yet enlightened. As if that was in doubt. But we are in the process of enlightenment (supposedly) so I suppose that counts for something.
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you're right about our public school system being out of wack. Thankfully, we have people who still believe in it though; my sister is one of those underpaid teachers out there who still spends her own money to buy supplies for her class, always looking around for what tricks will get a child interested in learning. Its definitely a thankless job these days.
IMHO, culturally, our system of education is irrevocably tied to the same survival-of-the-fittest concept that underpins capitalism itself. The idea that the best and brightest will float to the surface despite their environment... though it could easily be misconstrued as an excuse to let the environments in which we teach our children deteriorate to the extent they have. Unfortunately, opportunities for advancement for underpriveleged children are not what they are for the wealthy (to say the least), and thus, we have a world of silver-spooners who take it for granted and can get away with it and latchkey kids that see no hope in life, breed nihilism and self-destruction that becomes they ghettoization of the inner city, and pass that sort of defeated-self ideology on to their children. And the gap just gets wider.
As for the process of enlightening, I hope we can get there. The devolutionary forces that have always existed in human nature are only going to grow as this world continues to globalize. Perhaps we are headed for another Dark Age.
But I'll try to remain optimistic 
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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Thud, et al,
FYI:
Since, for some really odd reason Thud actually made this a topic of public discussion...
I actually attended both a public high school AND a public university...  Now, part of that description is deceptive, so I'll go into why...
The public schooling I received from kindergarten through high school was in the local jurisdiction with the highest medium household income in the United States, which meant I and others in my situation had vastly more resources expent on our educations than on the average public education in the U.S. More importantly, however, our jurisdiction had a gifted students program that started partially segregating students based upon test scores starting at age 8 and nearly completely segregating them (except for things like physical education) by age 13-14. The styles of teaching utilized on the two segregated groups are amazingly different.
Many jurisdictions throughout the country do this and spend vastly more funds on and devote far more teaching resources to students segregated out of the normal classes. It's something of a relic of 1940's and 1950's obsession in the United States for meritocratic schemes for identifying potential scientists and engineers for use in the space race and the Cold War. Personally, I don't even doubt that if the vast majority of students in the United States were given the same teaching and financial resources as were available to people in my situation, they would do just as well (and probably better, since they wouldn't be burdened with the sense of entitlement that tends to make people in my situation lazy and complacent...).
As for my public university education, I sought a degree in comparative politics and sociology as an undergrad (I had originally been seeking a degree in ethical/moral philosophy ). I was extremely fortunate, however, to be enrolled in the honors program and thus had contacts I could (and did) use to gain exposure to research in both my field and other fields (notably a great U.S. Dept. of Education study on university instruction).
In my opinion (and that of many) there is no substantive difference between a public university and a private university in the United States when it comes to your undergraduate education. Almost no employer cares where you get your bachelor's degree (including universities hiring professors), they care where you went for your advanced degrees. Based upon that, I chose to attend a public university, because I didn't think a private university was worth $30,000 - $40,000 a year when I could go to a public school for only ~ $10,000 a year to receive an undergraduate education of comprable quality.
AS FOR THE SECONDARY VS POST-SECONDARY U.S. EDUCATION:
The United States is remarkable for having one of the worst secondary (high school) education systems in the entire developed world, yet by far the highest quality post-secondary (university) education system in the world. This reality bears itself out in that now the majority of American college students spend their first 1-2 years in "remedial instruction" - studying things they should have been taught in high school... the problem is not, I believe, that the students are "stupid", it's that they're actually smart and the school systems aren't challenging them to the level of their capability...
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Oh, and Thud, my best friend from elementary school to present went to the University of Cambridge, St. John's College to study History - so, courtesy of him, I now know a thing or two about the British system 
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24-10-2002 04:58
Texas A & M doesn't graduate dumbies, do they... 
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