24-10-2002 09:09									#1
	Official Poll Concerning Hole In the Wall Full PM-box? Change here!

THis is an Official Poll by the MoCP for changing the Current build in Hole In Wall.

THe issues:
1) we now have Navigation and it's a race between ourselves & Rome on finding the Lost Civs first. We have A Galley that is currently East of Susa that will be moving towards the expected location of the Lost Civs. We should find them in about 4-7 turns from now.
2) Rome has been heavily exploring the Western Seas and is poised to move West and find the Lost Civs. THey should contact them within the same time frame.
3) We are Rapidly preparing for War and the Budget is tight. We have several things in the works: Building the FP; Operation Flip 'em Off; Keeping Arbela from Flipping to the English and the loss of our Spices (and the ensuing trade benifits); Building a western Fleet to find the Lost Civs. One of these MUST be put aside!

I propose changing the Current build & Queue to reflect the reality of our situation. Because this was a plan that I had Inherited with the Office, I beleave that it's time to change it.

Monies: From my Budget Request to the MoE

quote: We currently have 4 Lytons and an Income of 226LPT. So I would have to wait 2 turns to rush San Cortez & Geofront. My request: 720AD: None 730AD: None 740AD: San Cortez - Cathedral for 280L. Operation Flip ‘em off. Subtract 4L/turn if delayed. Geofront - Courthouse for 152L. Subtract 8L/turn if delayed. 750AD: Oak Ridge - Temple for 16L. This will be a Throughput Rush at this time, Not to be rushed after this date. Contagion - Cathedral for 200L. Build up to FP. Will give WLKD and speed production of the Market that is next to build before FP. Subtract 24L/turn if delayed. Last date to Rush is 820AD. 760AD: Hole in Wall - Harbor for 252L. Subtract 4/turn if delayed. or Willsbury - Courthouse for 160L. Subtract 8/turn if delayed. 770AD: Willsbury - Courthouse for 152L. Subtract 8/turn if delayed. or Hole in Wall - Harbor for 248L. Subtract 4/turn if delayed. or Bacteria - Courthouse for 184L 780AD and beyond (turnchat after next). Costs are at that time (I might be off a bit): Bacteria - Courthouse for 176L. Subtract 8/turn. Whelsh Coast - Courthouse for 212L. Subtract 4/turn. Tarsus - Courthouse for 220L. Subtract 4/turn. Need to start on more culture because of English. Antioch - Courthouse for 220L. Subtract 4/turn Thebes - Courthouse for 240L. Subtract 4/turn. Muncie - Courthouse for 252L. Subtract 4/turn. Napoleton - Courthouse for 260L. Subtract 4/turn. New York - Courthouse for 264L. Subtract 4/turn. Susa - Courthouse for 268L. Subtract 4/turn. Arbela - Library for 272L after 800AD. Cultural Flip fighter vs. English and loosing Spices. Subtract about 12/Turn. Contagion - Marketplace for about 240L after 810AD. Last phase of FP prebuild. Subtract about 32/turn, with the last chance to rush on about 860AD (time based on Cathedral completion). HIW - at least 156L for a Caravel after a one turn build. Subtract 4/turn.

As we can see, we have a LOT of money to be spent, but not much to that can be spent. SMC Aggie had requested a large sum for Upgrades, Possible War Throughput Rushes & Emergency Fund (incase we have problems with an Alliance). FAM Togas will hopefully make us same more when we Contact the Lost Civ's, but he might also have to spend some in further technology negotiations (using Lost Civ Contact as a Barganing point). My Current Prorities are to Crush our Rampiant Corruption/Waste through courthouse & Cathedral builds and getting the FP online. With All of this in mind, I must concentrate on Flip 'em off, FP and Arbela and leave all others until later. For this next turnchat, I'll most likely be given the funds for San Cortez & Contagion Rushes with possibly a little extra to rush the courthouse in Geofront (as that;s currently the cheapest).

With HIW's current build/Queue of Harbor-Galley/Caravel-Courthouse-Worker-Cathedral; it will be a long time until the near Catastrophic Corrution/Waste in HIW will be properly addressed. If I change it to: Courthouse-Cathedral-Harbor-Caravel, the City will be more self supporting and able to build Fleet Units in a more Cost effective manner. If a Courthouse is built, it's Corruption/Waste would be reduced from 88% to 53%. And after building a Cathedral, the Production Waste would be further reduced to 39%.

With all of this in mind, I request that the Western Fleet Plan be tabled for a while and that I be allowed to make the Build/Queue changes that the city requires. We will still have the ability for building a Western Fleet, but it would be at a lesser cost to the nation as a whole.

THis Poll will close in Five days, as I don't expect the funds to rush the Harbor anyways for this turnchat.

E_T

	24-10-2002 12:01									#2
	Re: Official Poll Concerning Hole In the Wall Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by E_T THis is an Official Poll by the MoCP for changing the Current build in Hole In Wall. 3) We are Rapidly preparing for War and the Budget is tight. We have several things in the works: Building the FP; Operation Flip 'em Off; Keeping Arbela from Flipping to the English and the loss of our Spices (and the ensuing trade benifits); Building a western Fleet to find the Lost Civs. One of these MUST be put aside!

I believe setting aside the western fleet is the best idea, although I have been advocating for a large navy often. At this junction it seems that our naval operations will concern the eastern seaboard rather than the west, so a western fleet is currently not needed.

	24-10-2002 19:00									#3
	Support Apolyton

IMHO you're dead wrong about the time it'll take us to find the lost civs. Our galley will be sailing to the SE and will find a lost civ within 4 turns max. I'll bet money on that.
Seeing that, there's no need for a western fleet right now so I am in full support of setting it aside for now.

	24-10-2002 19:09									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We finally get nav and now you want to wait on building boats on the west? We were suposed to already have boats on the west! Change to Galley/Caravel and rush imediatly! Finding the lost civs is more important than the (usless) war with france. Hell, I would even sacrifice funds alloted to Flip'em Off in order to find the lost civs.

FIND THE LOST CIVS AT ALL COSTS!

	24-10-2002 19:12									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Shiber IMHO you're dead wrong about the time it'll take us to find the lost civs. Our galley will be sailing to the SE and will find a lost civ within 4 turns max. I'll bet money on that. Seeing that, there's no need for a western fleet right now so I am in full support of setting it aside for now.

Well, I was being conservative in my guesstamate, as we might find them in 740AD. It's not as likely as 4 to 7 turns, but we may end up sailing due east and go right between two of the contenent. We have no clue what's out there. The main point is that it will be soon, very soon.

E_T

	24-10-2002 19:16									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I believe that our best hope for finding the lost civs are our current galleys. So I support this change 100%.
Aggie

	24-10-2002 19:35									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by donegeal We finally get nav and now you want to wait on building boats on the west? We were suposed to already have boats on the west! Change to Galley/Caravel and rush imediatly! Finding the lost civs is more important than the (usless) war with france. Hell, I would even sacrifice funds alloted to Flip'em Off in order to find the lost civs. FIND THE LOST CIVS AT ALL COSTS!

The SMC has requested that any boats built in the Western Sea (or anyplace for that matter) be veteran Units.

Als, If we change now, we wouldn't be able to Rush until next turn (unless you want to pay for it our of your own pocket, ya'll got 104 Lytons in your Pocket?). So we Rush a Regular boat on turn 1 and it's ready to sail on turn two. It will be turn 5 before it even gets to the first Ocean Tile (If the Iroquois let us get by). Then about 3 turns to get past that little nub of empty Unexplored Ocean that's south of the Greek Islands. Hmm 8 turns, Wait a second

quote: We should find them in about 4-7 turns from now.

I think that some other stuff is more cost worth projects, especially if we spend it now and will have done it for nothing.

E_T

	24-10-2002 20:06									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

E_T;

If you have the responsibility, you should have the power to make the changes as needed. No need to have a poll, although it is good to notify us of the change in plans.

Changes in circumstances must always be taken into consideration as orders are prepared.

GK

	24-10-2002 20:18									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by GodKing E_T; If you have the responsibility, you should have the power to make the changes as needed. No need to have a poll, although it is good to notify us of the change in plans. Changes in circumstances must always be taken into consideration as orders are prepared. GK

Yes, this is true, But I'd rather have this poll than a S**T load of hate mail and court threats. THis way, I have the public behind me, if the desicion is to allow me to make the changes. This also gauges their confidence in my desicions (and reasonings behind them) for this Office.

E_T

	24-10-2002 23:37									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

E_T- that's really great you've posted this poll, it is an important issue, and as it seems now a western fleet won't achieve it goal in time, not before the Roman fleet, and surely not before the galley heading SE.
i vote yes for the change.

	24-10-2002 23:49									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The idea of a Western Fleet is dead.

The six weeks of RL time spent preparing for its construction have been thrown out the window. Its gone, nothing we can do to bring it back. Deal with it and move on people.

We have to concentrate on reaching the Lost Civs by searching in the East, the West is no longer a second option as other civs filled in the void we left and are already searching to the west.

At this point the harbor is almost as insignificant as a courthouse so Hole in the Wall should build something more useful.

	25-10-2002 08:35									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bump.

MrWIA, as this is an official Poll, could you top this until Sunday, at whatever time is best for you.

Also, could you top all of the official polls that are currently under advisement.

E_T

	25-10-2002 22:44									#13
	Re: Official Poll Concerning Hole In the Wall Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by E_T THe issues: 1) we now have Navigation and it's a race between ourselves & Rome on finding the Lost Civs first. We have A Galley that is currently East of Susa that will be moving towards the expected location of the Lost Civs. We should find them in about 4-7 turns from now. 2) Rome has been heavily exploring the Western Seas and is poised to move West and find the Lost Civs. THey should contact them within the same time frame. 3) We are Rapidly preparing for War and the Budget is tight. We have several things in the works: Building the FP; Operation Flip 'em Off; Keeping Arbela from Flipping to the English and the loss of our Spices (and the ensuing trade benifits); Building a western Fleet to find the Lost Civs. One of these MUST be put aside! E_T

Building the FP benefits 1/2 of our empire, and speeds building more corruption busters. That's always been a spare no expence build for me. Operation Flip 'em Off just gets a few cities, and increases corruption,when we could be used for science. The best way might to max out science for a tech as soon as we buy its prerequiste. Arabela can probably be held with a temple. We can build a quickie fleet (before we get harbors) because the need is immediate, and its use is peaceful.

	26-10-2002 01:33									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The western fleet can wait...HIW has higher priorities, being a city on another continent and everything that goes along with that. Flip 'em off can be put off too, if an an emergency arises, though I am in support of using funds for it (for now) since the cities are close enough together together to prevent it from just turning the operation into a wild goose chase.

	26-10-2002 01:34									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

deleted - my first double post

	29-10-2002 10:43									#16
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This poll is now closed. Thank you for your Cooperation.

MrWIA, at your convienance, could you please work some ZpellZ and detop this?

E_T

	29-10-2002 20:04									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And just what should HIW be producing? I suggest a WC which will complete in 2 turns, and upgrade to KT.

reasoning...

When we attack France which I believe will be in ~ 3 turns, they will be looking for something to counterattack.

Unfortunately HIW with a lone spearman will probably bear the brunt. Unless we get something to defend with there asap, there won't be any HIW to make anything else.

	29-10-2002 20:55									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by roadcage And just what should HIW be producing? I suggest a WC which will complete in 2 turns, and upgrade to KT. reasoning... When we attack France which I believe will be in ~ 3 turns, they will be looking for something to counterattack. Unfortunately HIW with a lone spearman will probably bear the brunt. Unless we get something to defend with there asap, there won't be any HIW to make anything else.

The SMC & I have already discussed this Issue. He plans to Upgrade the Spearman their to Musket. Further, If need be, during the turnchat, we'll change production and rush a defencive unit (Musket). THis would be a last option if things don't go so well.

If Rome or Russia throws in with France, Banana forbid, All bets for HIW are off (and throw a lot of other stuff out the window too). We also discussed this at lenght.

E_T