13-10-1999 05:05									#1
	World War II Scenario: anyone interested, or any suggestions/comments? Tired of ads?

Hey!
WWII Scenario!!!
If you're interested or have any ideas, comments, or suggestions, write 'em down. Thanks.

N.

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 25, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited March 22, 2000).]

	13-10-1999 05:14									#2
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(See also Daniel Frappier's recent post for more details.)

	13-10-1999 07:30									#3
	Remove this text

I read in the other thread that you had made some terrain and goods icons and so-forth. I have a mod that uses a primitive form of city walls, called a stockade. I was unable to figure out how to create and install a separate terrain icon for the stockade, though. If you could create something to use to differentiate the stockade icon from the city wall icon, and perhaps tell me how to change the files in order to implement it, I would be very grateful.
Also, you stated you would like to have unique attitudes for the different sides in the WWII. Are you speaking from experience with CTP, or Civ II? From what I have learned working with the aidata in CTP, doing this would be much different than with Civ II. Then again, I don't know anything about the CTP programming language other than what I picked up from CD's comments.

Again, if you could help me with the sockade icon, I would be very grateful.

Wes Whitaker

	13-10-1999 08:24									#4
	Got spare money?

Hi Nordicus,

You must be kind of new to this Creation forum, cos I've posted a number of times already about my planned WW2 Europe scenario. I think I was already talking about my plans for making it before CTP even came out. Unfortunately, the patches have come so slowly that there isn't much I can do yet. The way things are going, I'm beginning to wonder if making good scenarios will EVER be possible with CTP. I can't even make my map yet cos maps have to be a perfect square and the one I want is rectangular (not to mention lack of flat map support).

But anyways, a guy can dream. Here again, is the gist. The proposed scenario would cover a very large area, including all of North Africa, North Pacific (including a bit of US East Coast, Middle East, north enough to include the Land Lease route to Russia, and far into Russia (about to Novosibirisk). Civs would be between 10 to 15, depending on how much extra ones slow the game down. Units would be about 90 different types. For the units, I've been focusing alot on "what if" type units, to allow for a lot more player choices, not just a replay of history. They are all historically well grounded in fact though. Time period would be from about May 1940 to 1946.

I agree things like borders would be great, but at this point I'd be happy just to have some basic scenario functionality. Things like civilization exclusive units, technologies that couldn't be traded, objective point victory system, ability to set the calendar by month instead of year, long promised 16 player support for scenarios, etc etc... Is Activision even working on fixing these kinds of things?? I'm getting pretty fed up waiting, but Civ3 is a long ways off and I'm bored with Civ2 already, so what else can a scenario maker do but put up with Activision's slowness? If all else fails and Activision completely drops the ball, I figure these graphics I've made can more or less work for Civ3, since Firaxis is using the SMAC engine to make that one so the size and tile directions will no doubt be very close.

I am much more into making the graphics and the map, and less into text file editing these days. The AI files in particular frighten me in their complexity and I don't have a clue about SLIC editing. So help would be greatly appreciated.

Nordicus, what are your plans? If you're making graphics, I highly recommend a number of sources for "raw material". Most of my WW2 units came from The Operational Art of War I or the East Front and West Front games. TOAW II covers post-WW2 until now, so between these four things you have just about all the 20th century raw graphics you'd need except for older stuff like WWI. I have all of that and can pass stuff on to interested graphics makers. All these games use the same format.

The biggest problem is that the graphics are too small in my opinion- I have to enlarge them 25% usually, which then means a lot of tweaking to make them look good again. Plus, for the five angles, one of the angles is off by about 15 degrees. So that needs to be rotated and then tweaked alot to fit the CTP format. Also, you're on your own with shadows. But its much better doing that than starting from nothing.

These games are also mostly focused on land combat, and frequently lack much good naval and air graphics (especially high altitude bombers). So for naval stuff I generally used the Viewpoint website, and for air to plug the holes these games lack I've been trying to get Microsoft Flight Simulator graphics (though I don't actually have them in hand yet). Jim Hair has a game called Soldiers at War that appears to have great graphics to make WW2 era soldier units. Pacific War stuff may be much hard to get, though TOAW may have some of that.

For older graphics, Jim Hair has also passed on to me all the Age of Empires graphics, converted into a usable format. So no need to work from screenshots there. They're generally very easy to convert to CTP format, but I haven't gotten around to doing more than a few- perhaps someone would like to take on this conversion to allow more ancient units? I can email the files.

I'm imagining that the Age of Kings graphics will be pilferable before too long, so that generally fills most graphics needs up to the year 1500 or so. Between 1500 and WW2 it still seems hard to find good raw material for that.

I'll be back to the US in a week or so and will be able to start in again on CTP stuff before too long.

	13-10-1999 23:32									#5
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Wes W:
Yes, I've seen (and have) your mod with the stockade feature in it (can't recall what it was called, having downloaded so many, but I do remember it). I think I might be able to help--it's not the terrain or terrainicon files that you need to change for your stockade; it's the improve and improveicon ones, as well as the gl_str of course. I haven't had time to properly test my terrain or goods graphics, and I've never done an improvement yet..although I believe it could be done in the same sort of way.

Yeah, I'd really like to have customized personality types, for esp. a WWII scenario as well as a more extensive war scenario. What sort of experience do you have with aidata? Any success in altering AI personalities? Last night I spent many hours going trough the diplomacy files and had slight success with making it so AI civs aren't so friggin angry at the human player when he/she has done nothing to justify this 'reaction' (diplomacy, diplomacy_accepted, diplomacy_begin, diplomacy_incoming, diplomacy_outgoing, diplomacy_rejected), but I only touched on a few things. I haven't gotten to the personality files yet, so I was unable to determine how to make allied AI civs to refrain from trespassing or how to make them fight a common enemy, rather than attacking only when the enemy is standing right in front of them.
(I've played Civ on SNES and CivII on my Playstation, so CTP is my first PC experience with the Civ series.)
So, I think I could help you out. Oh, BTW, I was stumped by the meaning of the numbers (and too hestitant too mess with their values) in, as an example (in dimplomacy_set_loyal):

output trustworthiness[0.0, 2.0] = 1.9
tri backstabber(trustworthiness, 0.1, 0.1)
tri average_trustiness(trustworthiness,1.0, 0.1)
tri loyal_puppy(trust.............)et cetera.

Any idea what these numbers might refer to?

N.

	14-10-1999 00:50									#6
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I am at work but I will have files to send you tonight if my test to create an entirely new AI personnality works.

Reguarding you're last question, it is not very difficult:

The "personalitySciFew.fli" file is called whenever it is time for a player with the "SciFew" personality type to play, as defined in the "civilisation.txt" file. To create a new personality type "german" you would have to create a "personalitygerman.fli" file that would say what is main personality is.

Then:

"personalitySciFew" ---include--> "mainSciFew"---include-->"diplomacypeaceloyal"---include-->"diplomacy_set_loyal"

Inside diplomacy_set_loyal:

output trustworthiness[0.0, 2.0] = 1.9
tri backstabber(trustworthiness, 0.1, 0.1)
tri average_trustiness(trustworthiness, 1.0, 0.1)
tri loyal_puppy(trustworthiness, 1.9, 0.1)


You set the loyality of the player, (in this case 1.9). The closer it is to 2 the more loyal the player will be, the closer to 0 the more backstabber the player will be.

I hope it helps a bit.

	14-10-1999 01:48									#7
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Harlan:
What gave me away? Yeah I'm a newbie to the forums here, but I've been visiting the site for a while. I've seen some of your previous work while visiting a CivII site, snooping around for graphics. Speaking of maps...last night I tried something. Because I found the default map sizes inadequate (with respect to an Earth-type map: how could civs such as Japan and England, not to mention having naval bases (cities on islands) in the pacific, manage to amount to anything given the land requirements each city needs to feed itself, et cetera?), I increased the 'gigantic'/'superlarge' one to 134 X 268, the 'large' to 188 X 236, 'medium' to 86 X 172, and 'small,' 70 X 140. I tested the mega-supreme size one out first and, coupled with resetting the start date to -5000, it worked surprisingly well, taking about 50 to 60 seconds to load initially but then proceeding without any problems after that pause. I don't know if this has been tried before, I haven't tested it extensively, and I'm unsure whether or not it would be slower on slower systems, but I was quite satisfied. As for making the map rectangular, I'm uncertain...I guess one could try. Anyway, although I love the 134 X 268 map, I don't think it's necessary for the WWII scenario--maybe the 86 X 172, in order to make a semi-decent and semi-realistic representation of, say, England, Japan, but also the world. For a decent or reasonably realistic world map (having balanced proportions--the Pacific Ocean, in particular, compared to the Atlantic, etc.) it would have to be 118 X 236, giving island civs enough room to have more than four or five comfortable cities (how the heck could Japan take on the States w/ 6 cities?).
Which leads me to this question: how open are you to using a full-size world map? This would be for only a WWII (not WWI or a Cold War) scenario. Some people I know who've played war games, as whatever nation, have complained about not being able to conquer the entire world (I've experienced this too, playing PTOII...I dunno, once you get going, you don't want to stop, it's just not satisfying to pull over when you know that other areas remain unconquered). Control Freak Syndrome? Perhaps. But lemme know what you think.

Also, are you talkin' European Theater only, or all WWII Theaters? I'm thinking more of a 'Campaign' type of thing. But I don't have this carved into my forehead, so I'm open to other ideas.

I agree with the number of civs (for a Europe Scenario), types of units, esp. 'whatif' types, and giving the player(s) options (however, if the end year is only a year after the war actually ended, it doesn't leave a lot of room for 'whatif' units). Perhaps it could be 'goal'-orientated?

My plans: firstly (echoing yours), to make a WWII Scenario; secondly, to create a 20th Century War Scenario (covering both World Wars and the Cold War era). I'm interested in an ancient scenario as well, but maybe when one of the above is complete, or to help out someone else doing one (with graphics or whatever--and it sounds like when Age of Kings is in a more friendly format, this will be quite easy to do). But right now we seem to be on the same page here. A WWII Scenario is greatly needed, as well as some improvement which could make it GOOD, not average. But if average is better than nothing, I suppose I'll choose average.

Hey, any graphics you can share would be very much appreciated....Ah, shadows--honestly, I haven't put any in yet. Yes, it's hard to locate good naval unit graphics, because, I think, there just aren't that many games featuring naval combat. I can't even think of one recent (modern) one. Oh-yeah, wait: "Fighting Steel," I think it's called (read a review and it sounded pretty disappointing).
I've got a few games, but they're not in CTP format, so screenshots is about it for them.

Alrighty-then, so if you'd like to collaborate, hey, great. If so, we ought to first be in agreement on what we're doing, huh? Then we could decide who works on what, et cetera. But we really need someone who knows more about text files, aidata, than we do. Even if someone could give me a few tips, I might be able to figure out some things....
At any rate, lemme know whatcha think, and if you want to email any graphics, that'd be cool (nordicus@home.com). Until then, enjoy your Borneo Expedition! (I expect that the weather's better than over (&up) here in Edmonton!) (;b)


N.

	14-10-1999 03:34									#8
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Daniel...hello.
Thanks a lot for that! It answered a number (so to speak) of questions I had regarding those insipid little numbers!
Yeah, I did find a few graphics, and I downloaded a few more, but I'm uncertain as to what kind you need (goods? improvement icons? terrains? wonder icons? all of the above? other...?)
I could help you out with units as well, but what seems really practical (and saves a lot of time) is for you or someone else (maybe Harlan, who said he has some and could email them) who has graphics to send them to me and take it from there, but I need to know what you had in mind for your AOK Scenario (I've never played any in that serious, thus I'm a bit clueless about the games concepts, etc.).
Anyway, thanks again, and anything else would be greatly appreciated (esp. ANYTHING in the aidata files regarding numbers: math is not one of my strong points.....art, logic, and design: okay). And if you need anything else, don't hestitate.

N.

	14-10-1999 08:28									#9
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Nordicus,

I just sent to you a set of files (There are 7 files that needs to be created/modify).

In those I demonstrate how you can create a new personnality type. I created the "german" type wich I gave to the german instead of their usual "warmany". My guess is that what you want to do in you're scenario is create a "german", "english", "american", "japaneese", etc. "personnality" type as I will do for my AOK modpack but in my case it will be a Franks, English, Byzantines, Mongols, etc. types.

With all those types you would replace all the predefined types in aiploader. I only putted the minimum of work but for a real modpack you would clean aiploader a bit.

I haven't also make changes in german.aip, I just wanted to load it into memory and I have checked that it does that.

This gives you the ability to prevent Civs to research technologies and build units, improvments and wonders that don't belong to them. Even if a Civ would gain a tech through trading, it would not make any use of it because there would not be anything in it's build orders in his aip file.

We could not prevent a human player to use technology acquired through trade but I don't think that's a problem. You make rules and players respect them.

It is interesting that there is a long list of conditions you can use during the game to load different aip. As an example you could have 2 for Italy, 1 before and after the fall of Mussolini.

I have read somewere that you can't replace fli and aip files for modpack, I haven't tested that. I have made my test in the main CTP folders by renaming the standard files.

My offer is still open and starting october 30th I will have lots of time on my hands but right now my bosses are given me a maximum of work before I leave. So, so long for now.

	14-10-1999 09:15									#10
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Nordicus,
I must be (relatively) brief, as I am off to the jungle again today. Thanks for your offer, I am very happy about that. If I have to do this all by myself, I fear I'll never have enough time to make it a reality.

I can't explain more right now, but if you want to see more details about my WW2 Europe scenario, just scroll back to the previous months' discussion of the Creation forum. There are several different threads that go into lots of detail, even back to April or so. My plans haven't changed much, except I added about 10 more unit types.

About the all of world map vs. Europe only, I am very pro on Europe only. Not only because I've already made the map (on paper, not within CTP yet). The fact is, these countries had their limitations. I'm glad CTP reflects this with the increasing unhappiness you get after a certain size, for each government type. In the case of the Germans and Italians, there just weren't enough resources and manpower to absorb all the lands they conquered, if they had been more successful. So you see that in their strategic plans for how they were going to use Russia once they'd conquered it all. They only had plans to control Russia up to the Urals. The Urals and beyond they were going to leave to a puppet government because it would probably take them many years just to completely subdue and handle the European part.

So when you start to talk about Nazis conquering South America, America, all of Africa and so on, there is just no way that could have happened in the 1940s regardless of how militarily successful they were, given that guerrilla movements would spout up everywhere they went. Look at Alexander- he never lost a battle, yet he had to stop his conquests and absorb them for a decade or more before continuing on (he was in the process of absorbing when he got malaria and died). Thus, when you make a world map, you only lose detail you otherwise could have had in Europe and nearby.

The one advantage is to deal with Japan and Germany at the same time, but I don't believe the AI could play the aggressor that well (just try to see if it could launch a Pearl Harbor attack by itself!), so the only way one could have that is if there was a multiplayer game going on, which doesn't happen very often.

There are many good reasons why no country has ever conquered the entire world (much less a single large continent)- its a damn difficult thing to do!

	15-10-1999 08:05									#11
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Hi Nordicus, Just wanted to let you know I'm in the process of making a WW2 scenario. It will involve all theatre's of operations. Not sure how long it will take to finish since it's coming along slowly. But I'm putting alot of effort into it.
Also glad to know a fellow Albertan is making scenario's I thought I was the only one. I live in Camrose.

Talk to you later

------------------
Gemini
[This message has been edited by gemini (edited October 14, 1999).]

	16-10-1999 08:20									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Daniel:
I just checked my mail: thank you very much for the files and for your work. The three personality types I've been outlining are Axis: IMPERIALISTIC ("Expansionistic"), Allied: DEMOCRATIC ("Reasonable"--or "Defensive"), and Russian: SOVIET ("Socialist"--or something else). I had ideas of also doing three other ones (XENOPHOBIC--"Reclusive," which would define underdeveloped or closed-off civs, PACIFIST--"Neutral," which would define WWII civs such as Sweden, Switzerland, etc., and ERRATIC--"Unpredictable," which would combine all types of AI personalities), but I thought that three was enough for a WWII Europe Scenario. Perhaps for a more expensive scenario could feature these others....These were my initial outlines, simply because they seemed simple and easy to keep track of...but I think that maybe it might be better having a GERMAN type for the Nazis, an ITALIAN type for Facist Italy, a JAPANESE type for Imperialist Japan, as well for Allied civs and the Soviets (but only as long as these types could be MORE than CTP-type allies: REAL allies, which would actually fight an enemy rather than lazing around until an enemy trips in front of them, then they attack it...you know what I mean?). Yes, I see the bonuses in this setup. Also, I like your idea of having two for Italy: but the second would be a 'just-in-case' one, in case Mussolini was ousted--not wanting an exact replay of history but having conditions there which make it possible for him to be overthrown (ie. if the Allies invade Italy, then the nation revolts: Mussolini ousted: new aip loaded). Good idea (one could be done for every major player in the war, so that there is always a risk of revolution, even in Allied civs, if invaded, and consequently a second aip is loaded, but I don't know how much work would be involved...).

I haven't had a chance to look them over yet (I've been quite preoccupied with trying to get my 9 new terrains and 21 new trade goods up and operational--just finished all the necessary files but not all of the graphics yet). But I'll go over your files tonight when I've finished my graphics. If you're interested in any new terrains and/or trade goods (if they work, that is) for your AOK mod, then lemme know. Any additional info on AIP files would be

So, your mod seems to be set somewhere between 600 and 1400 A.D., huh?--noting your civ choices. Yeah, Oct. 30 sounds okay, but like I said, I can't devote all of my time to it, for the WWII Europe Scenario and a complete WWII Scenario would take up most of my time. Yet I don't see a problem with any graphics, units, icons, etc., you need done.
Have much to do tonight, so I'll talk to you later-----thanks again!

N.

	16-10-1999 09:48									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Harlan:
I trust the jungle finds you well...
I've gone over your last post here as well as several ancient posts regarding your WWII plans. Well, I'm very pro-world; however, arguing back and forth about which sort of map would be better or more realistic would not only prove futile but also an enourmous waste of time (which could otherwise be spent on creating something). Thus, I hereby agree to do a WWII EUROPE Scenario, realizing that a more extensive one could be done after (and if you'd like to collaborate on that one as well, that'd be totally cool). I'm also of the opinion that it would be soooo nice just to get anything going that contains something even resembling a WWII scenario. I also comprehend what you're saying about if the Nazis had done things differently and conquered the world--no, I don't think they could've done it in the 1940s; perhaps into the 1950s IF England had been successfully invaded by 1942 and (a big) IF Nazi Germany had not invaded Russia at all...unsure how they would've managed getting Russia as an ally without threatening the alliance with Japan, but with Russia as an ally, it is entirely possible that all major opponents would have been eliminated. Most of of Africa might have been engulfed by 1945-46 without England around or any remaining French resistance to speak of, and no Russian Front, and an adequate Nazi navy, w/ carriers for the entire Luftwaffe, and 'whatif' forces, missles, maybe atomic weapons, could have headed for the North American east coast by 1948-49; Russia could have seized most of China and worked its way toward the Indian Ocean by 1948, maybe sooner, depending on how fast Stalin could mobilize and organize such a campaign; Japan would have been thus free to finish off any Allied forces in the West Indies, Austrailia, and begin moving towards American shores by 1945 to 1947........As for a 'new' Axis conquering the world...I don't know, but it would have taken...hmmm...at least 20 years. It's so hard to say: too many variables, what-ifs, et cetera.

But this is an old argument. I'm not one of those people who think that the Nazis could have conquered the entire world by themselves. That's absolutely absurd. All I'm saying is that (a) IF it had Russia as an ally, (b) IF Japan would've accepted that, and (c) IF England had been invaded successfully, then the combined new Axis forces might have conquered a great deal of it. Still, even if they conquered America and the rest, Hitler had always wanted the lands in Russia (he would not have settled for middle Africa (!) as Germany's "living room") and so, if he was around, I don't believe WWII would have been over for the Nazis until Russia (and its new territory) and probably Italy and the Japanese were also conquered, given their fanatical racist philosophy. They would not have been successful, unless they used nuclear weapons which no other side had (but America would have still had them, so this is also dubious). Oh, one could go in circles for hours on this subject!

At any rate, I concur: conquering the world is extremely complicated and difficult. But in the context of a game, it's damn fun to try.

So, with all that said, let's proceed with the WWII Europe Scenario. I'd rather have a full map of Russia (not for any logical reason), but if you've made one already, let's use it. On paper, you said--are you planning to make the actual one yourself? You also said you preferred a rectangular map--not sure why...because your designed map is like that? I have some knowledge of map sizes, yet I haven't tried changing map dimensions. If you want, I could try to change one. If not, what are your plans regarding what you wish to make first when you return? I'm still not clear on the options open to a player...having a scenario end in 1946 gives just a year (or two) for 'whatif' units, for whichever side. How 'dead-set' are you on this end date? Also, I don't what you mean by "flat map support."

With Daniel's help, I'm coming to some answers about the AI civs' personalities involved with this. (Please see the above, if you haven't already done so.)

But that's enough for now, have a whole crapload of stuff to do tonight.

Later.

N.

	16-10-1999 10:18									#14
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Gemini: hey there!
Yeah, nice to see another Albertan in here, esp. one creating such a beautiful thing! Camrose, eh? I've been around there, but I don't know anyone from there, so I've never stopped there--I did have a brief stay in Vegreville, though, not sure if there's any similarities....

So, you're working on one involving all theatres of operations...? Cool. And how coincidental: that's what I'm planning after Harlan and I finish the WWII Europe one. How far have you gotten so far? What kind of map are you working with? Have you any skills in text-file-writing...?
(Wink-wink-nudge-nudge.)
And are you a lone-worker or would you consider a collaboration?

Lemme know whatcha think.

If not, well, good luck, and if you need any help, just ask.

Later...

N.

	17-10-1999 04:01									#15
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Hi Nordicus, So far I'm working on making the units. It is a very time consuming process but I have about 50 units made so far. Another 50 are going to be made. I made about 10 with animations. (example p-51d with rotating propellors for movement animation and tracers for the attack animation). The animated units take alot of time though but I think the end result is worth it. The problem is I am having problems finding enough free 3d models on the net for the units so some units will be unanimated but all will have five facings.

It's a bigger task then I expected but it will be worth it.

I did fool around with the map sizes the other day and found about the right size I will use. But nothing made yet.

I don't know much yet about editing the text files. I am planning to do that last. But I have done it in civ 2, hopefully it will be somewhat similar.

Anyway I would be open to collaborating on my scenario but I want to finish all the units first.

If there is any unit you would like to see included in a world war 2 scenario let me know. I would list all the units that I am planning to include but I don't want to spend the time right now typing them in.

Anyway I'll talk to you later

Take it cool N.

------------------
Gemini

	17-10-1999 05:29									#16
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Hi guys,

I have a request to be made. It would be great if somebody would do a WWII scenario that could be played multi-player in one night. Although I am still interested at single player and looking at fli files I have been playing multi every thursday night for over a month and I love it, it can't compare to single player.

Good scenarios that could be played multi in reasonnable time could become tremendously popular because multi CTP is really exciting. They are also easier to balance since you need less time to play them over and over again.

	17-10-1999 06:31									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have a map of Europe for civ II that you guys might want to look at. Mark posted recently that a hack will soon be out to convert civ II maps to CTP ones. I sent this map to a site which just handled maps, and the guy there said it was the best he had ever seen. Send me a request through the link here, and I'll send you a copy.

	17-10-1999 08:33									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi,
Just got off the plane today, I'm back in the good ol' USA. I should be able to start doing CTP type stuff again, soon.

Nordicus,
I really like the individual civ personality model you and Daniel are thinking about. The biggest use I see for this is for the French. They make a big turnaround with the possible Vichy administration. That could solve a big problem, cos I was never quite sure what to do about that. The Free French could be an arm of the Allies.

I'd be very happy to see the new trade goods and terrain up and operational. I know one can make replacement trade good graphics, but are you sure it is currently possible to make replacement terrain types?

About the whole world vs. Europe question. In a perfect world, a whole world map would be better, with the war raging till the 50s. But in actuality, the larger the map gets the slower the game will run, and the Europe map I envision just by itself is probably going to tax the game speed enough as it is. So I have to make compromises. The reason I'm thinking of a cutoff around 1946 is because one can only take the "whatif" so far, without inventing things out of whole cloth. I can include weapons projects that were started but didn't become important or quite operational but I don't feel comfortable going beyond that. I also worry about running out of things to research, so I'd rather not go into 1946. But that's okay, because with 20/20 hindsight, both the Germans and Allies will do better, researchwise (esp Germans since they made more mistakes). So for good players 1944 will really be like the real 1945, with new weapons and strategic options. I was thinking of ending at Jan 1946, but I could go later (end of 46?) if more what-if weapons with a historical grounding could be found. The big problem is the Allies who had very few new weapons types in the pipeline, but could have if they opted the non-nuclear route, or thought the war would last longer.

I agree in a broad way with what you say about the Germans conquering into the 1950s. One fly in the ointment though: it is now known that Stalin planned on attacking Germany in 1942. Part of the reason the Russians got so whacked in 1941 was because they were gearing up offensively, without much thought to defense. So you can't speak of a war without a Russian front with any high chance of probability. The whatifs start to pile up on each other, but it makes for insteresting speculation, anyways.

Regarding the flat map and rectangular map. My map is much wider than it is high, and as far as I understand, it is only possible now to make a perfect square map, where the height is exactly the same as the width. Technically you can make such a map in the map editor, but the AI doesn't work properly, I understand. There are similar technical problems with even making a flat map now. Also technically you can do it, but Activision folks told me it is safer to wait till its officially supported to protect against bugs and such (for instance I experimented with making one, and found AI civs could randomly start off the edges of the map!). I do have the paper map made and scanned in though, so I'll email it to you now that I'm back.

Harlan

	17-10-1999 08:58									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Gemini,
Do'h! I didn't know you were gonna make 100 WW2 units. Had I known that (and assuming I like what you've made), I wouldn't have bothered to make my 64 so far. I would like to see a list of the units you're making- please post that ASAP. And can you send me the ones you've done? Maybe I won't have to make some or all of the ones I'm still planning to do.

Just out of curiousity, are you going to use any of the units I've made? And if not, why not? You just enjoy making units yourself, perhaps? It rather strange, the sheer amount of WW2 units compared to other eras, if you're making that many. Too bad you didn't tell me about this before- God knows I've been blathering about my WW2 stuff on this form for quite some time now!

Daniel,
I envision this WW2 scenario as ideally played between two or three players. But not to be completed in one night- I like going into detail. It would make a good PBEM thing, I think. Or just keep going from one Thursday to the next with the same game.

One other thing: did you ever hear anything about the DVD version of this game coming out? I can't believe the Apolyton posting saying its been released.

WesW,
This idea of converting Civ2 maps to CTP is really great if it works. I got your map but haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Unfortunately, I doubt I'll use it though, even if its great. Why? Cos of the Civ2 100 by 100 maximum size limit. No matter how great your map is, I'm gonna want to blow that maximum size apart. My map is gonna be really big, but I'm hoping that since much of that is generally empty and rarely used (the Sahara and North Atlantic) it won't slow the game down too much. Sorry bout that, but keep up the good work- I look forward to checking out your newly edited files.

	17-10-1999 22:43									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Harlan,

No news at all, from anibody here or my local CompuStore about the DVD.

	18-10-1999 09:17									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hi Harlan, Most of the stuff I have made is not the same as the stuff you have made. Also I have made a few animated sprites. Some I know you would be intrested in. Here is a list of the ones made so far.
Every thing animated has either a
attack(a) movement (m) death (d)
behind it.
B17 a m
wildcat animated a m
p51 animated a m
thunderbolt a m
spitfire a m
stuka a m
biplane a m
nuclear bomb a
aircraft carrier d
I also have a whole bunch of army men made with only one facing though.

And a whole bunch of tanks made. For the following countries germany, american, british, russian, and working on some italian tanks now. All have five facings.

Your sprites are good but not animated, that is why I have made a few animated but for lack of resources(3d models) I will have to settle with unanimated sprites for some units.

I have been purposely trying to avoid making the same stuff as you because I was planing to use some of your units. If that is okay.

All of the animated units have been properly aligned but some of the tanks and men have not been tested yet but have been compiled. Let me know if you would like to see all or just the animated ones and I will e-mail. I have no tga files for these yet.

Talk to you later,




------------------
Gemini

	18-10-1999 16:14									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Gemini,

Please send what you've got of the units you've got, animated or no. I'm just curious to see what they look like, finished or not.

I'm not quite sure about mixing animated and non-animated units- it may be wierd to have some units that can do all kinds of things and others that can't do any. But its better to have the option, so that people can turn it on or off, I suppose.

Here's the stuff I'm still needing:

**= Axis only, ## Allies only, @@ Russians only

Alpine Troops
Border Defense
General
## Marines
Paratroopers
Partisans
** Spy
** Stormtroopers
## American Infantry
## British Infantry
** German Infantry
@@ USSR Infantry
Infantry
Anti Tank Infantry

** P-1101 Jet Fighter
** Arado 234 Jet Bomber
** He-177 Bomber
## Meteor Jet Fighter
## Lancaster Bomber
## B-29 Superfortress
@@ Pe-8 Bomber
@@ Tu-2 Bomber

Please send me your complete list of units made and planned to be made. Is it possible you could do/ have done any of the above? As I said somewhere else, soon I will be receiving in the mail a copy of the game Soldiers at War (courtesy of Jim Hair) that should allow five facing graphics for many of the ground units. Would you be interested in helping me out on making some of those? It only has a few types that can be used relatively unchanged (being mostly a US vs Germany game) but the rest can be extrapolated with some editing, I think.

And I'm really hoping you've done/ can do some of the remaining bombers, as I have no raw material to work from on those yet (except for the P1101).

Harlan

PS- send stuff to my harlant@earthlink.net address.

	19-10-1999 03:57									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Nordicus, have you looked at making that stockade icon I asked about? I have the rest of the mod ready to send in, and this is the only glitch in it that I can't fix. If you could just take the existing city wall icon, and change the color of it to a wood-brown, that would be fine. Of course, I would also need to know how to implement it.

	19-10-1999 08:22									#24
	Tired of ads?

Harlan, if I could make a request...You stated that you are enlarging the graphics 25% for your mod. I think I would rather you left them at the original size. This would put them at about the same size as the standard units. I play at the 800x600 screen size, and the units seem a little fuzzy, and a little over-sized when viewed at that setting. This would make for less work for you, and produce better-looking units, too, imo.

I wish Paul's graphics units for CD's mod had been smaller. They look fine at 1064x724, but show up really fuzzy at the 800x600 setting.

	19-10-1999 09:09									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

WesW:
I just posted in the other section regarding this. Oh, that was quick--mail for me, from you.
Okay, just got your two files and will go over them in a little bit.
Thanks for that and for the blinding speed!
Talk to you later...


N.

	19-10-1999 09:51									#26
	Support Apolyton

Gemini:
Hey! Look at all those yummy units! Man, saves me a bunch of work. I was wondering about the 'people' units, 'army men' types...there's only one facing for them? What I had planned was using screen shots (HyperSnapDX) of some with all five facings (example: in making the SS unit, a modern/German spy unit, I'd just touch up the existing CTP Spy unit--same for a Russian spy type, KGB or something--and for the Stormtrooper: I was going to change the existing 'Facist' unit, as well as give him slaver qualities; and I thought that the 'Marine' unit could be slightly altered for an Allied Infantry unit). I thought that it would save a lot of work and time using some of the orginal units but altering them--as well, having all 5 facings, correct angles, etc., would be very handy. If this sounds reasonable to you, I could send you them, or perhaps Harlan's offer (i.e. the graphics from 'Soldiers at War' from Jim Hair) would be better. I'm just trying to think of what would save the most time and energy, and have units that are roughly similar in concept, having 5 facings, etc.

I'll echo Harlan's list of required units and add (including those mentioned above):

(**--Axis; ##--Allied; @@--Russian)

** SS
@@ KGB (if it's for a Europe WWII one or not)
Mine (Sea)
Land Mine (AP)
Land Mine (Antitank)
## Partisan (French underground)

(Harlan mentioned the Stormtrooper already. What this game really, badly, needs is an Engineer unit--modern Settler--although I'm unsure whether this is an option for our scenario...lemme know what ya think.)

It seems as though you, Harlan, and I all want the the same thing: a functional and good-looking WWII Scenario before the next millenium comes. There's no reason why we all can't work on a Europe Scenario first, then a Scenario encompassing all theatres of operations, is there? Anyway, lemme know whatcha think. Meanwhile, I'll get started on that damned AIP business.
Later.

N.

	19-10-1999 10:25									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Harlan:
Howdy!
I got your maps and liked what I saw (although they're pretty useless right now: need a new printer at the end of the month, and it seems as though I can't splice them into one image--apparently, 128 mb of RAM is insufficient to do so). Yes, I can handle very large files. Oh, BTW, how coincidental that you have a "dunes" terrain, for I've made a third desert terrain called (whatta coinkydink) 'Dunes,' the concept of which is an actual arid wasteland tile (no goods, gold or food) in addition to other desert tiles; it's not totally uncrossable, but it's as hard to get across it as a mountian (400).
Speaking of which, everything's done now, but I'm having trouble implimenting the new terrains. It seems I've not finished ALL of text files as I thought (already altered terrains, terrainicon, goods, goodsicon, goodsID, gl_str, Const, gw, concept, concepticon...), but the real problem is with my water terrains. I made three: all polar ocean types (reduced mobility, inaccessible for some early ships); deepwater_ice, water_ice (shallow polar ocean), and ice_beach (polar coast). But it appears that I may have to scrap them, because of all the confusion they're causing--too bad, I really felt that warm ocean water surrounding glacial islands was moronic. Oh well.

Anyway, I don't have a 'bauxite' good; here are the mineral goods I've included:

gold
silver
iron ore
coal
copper
uranium

They're not all that pretty to look at (especially the iron ore...*shudder*), but hey, they're minerals, not ancient Chinese ceramics.
I have also a couple gem goods, food goods, etc. Oh--I was way ahead of ya: I dramatically increased the value of oil (as well as diamonds) and added it to the tundra terrain as good2, to make northern terrain areas more attractive in general.
What else...yeah, farted around with dip_str to increase the AI's vocabulary and changed some of its monotonous phrases.

And now I'm about to look over some AIP and aidata stuff, as well as design a stockade icon for WesW's mod, right after I try to get those f**king terrains working.
What are you up to?

Gotta go. Later.

N.

	19-10-1999 10:37									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Harlan:
(Post Script: Yeah, if Gemini sends you any previews of those units, I'd really like a peek as well, if Gemini doesn't mind. And if you can send a whole map, that'd be super. Thanks.)

	19-10-1999 12:02									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nordicus, did you increase the numbers at the top of the appropriate text files? I always forget that.

Also, I would be interested in having a set of files which place the oil good in the tundra type for my mod, as well.

I've contacted Dutchcheese about his alterations to the aidata files. What I learn from him may be helpful with your mod as far as designing agressive, warlike behavior patterns.

	19-10-1999 13:18									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

Nordicus,
Regarding unit graphics. I just saw Gemini's units, and while good looking, most are "people" units that unfortunately are not good enough if we want 5 facing units. I'm sure Gemini was doing the best he could with the resources available, but since I know of this "Soldiers at War" lead, I think we should take advantage of that, and make all the "people" units five facing as well.

I have only been sent a sample graphic from the Soldiers at War game, but Jim H. says he will snail mail me the entire game soon. I'll send you and Gemini the sample graphic I got already though, to see what I mean. I could hardly ask for something more perfect to make units from- the facings, size, detail, etc is just right for CTP. If we pool our resources, we could divide tasks and finish making these in a short time. I think this is much better than touching up the existing CTP people units, cos I've always had a few issues with those, like the inhumanly large muscles that would be very difficult to tone down.

As for the extra units you mentioned, SS should be same as Stormtroopers, no? and Partisans is already on my list. KGB I would be game for adding, though you might want to call it NKVD or Commisar. Mines I don't think will really work in CTP. They almost put mines in the game (notice the cut Minesweeper/Engineer unit) but they couldn't get it to work in time I guess. I agree a modern Settler type unit would be a good thing for CTP in general, but for WW2, I don't envision a need. I don't want a unit that builds new cities, since that's not what the scenario is about (the AI would only misuse it), and Public Works takes care of everything else.

As far as implementing your new terrains, as I asked before, how are you going to get the game to recognize the new appearance?? Tell me if you know of some way to have the game use the graphics, cos as far as I know, we only have the ability to edit special resource graphics so far. One wierd workaround idea: maybe make a new terrain type like Dunes be special resource that you would place in huge quantities as if it was the underlying terrain, and have the graphic completely cover the tile. Or does simply pointing to a different .tga file with the Terrainicon.txt file work??

Bauxite (ie aluminum) should be easy enough to make, probably one of the other mineral graphics could be used for it.

Harlan

PS- please send me what you've got graphics wise too- I'd like to see these various terrain things for instance.


[This message has been edited by Harlan (edited October 19, 1999).]