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samson
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Settings: Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, random map (small). Civ 2.4.2
4000BC Indians (Purple), near-polar start, hut in view
Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial
An OCC size1 game is played like OCC, only one city is allowed, with the further restriction of limiting this city's size to a population of 1. This is the ultimate minimalist challenge. The strategy is rather simple and the gameplay straightforward.
For a city site, you want to find a single trade special close to another civ's capital. You found your city on the special and build road/railroad into the foreign capital to boost your trade routes. You build the science improvements and wonders and not much else except for caravans/freights which are stockpiled for Apollo and SS parts. You make allies of all other civs (you are Pathetic, so this is possible) and beg them for gold every turn. You set science as high as possible and trade for any techs you can.
3500BC Delhi founded on Gold (2nd settler is mining), worker on Ocean.
Trade=8, Science=5, Food=2, Shields=1.
The Persian Capital is 2 squares away.
3150BC Library built. Science=7
2650BC Switch to Republic. Trade=11, Science=13
2300BC Trade discovered. Road to Persepolis completed.
2250BC 1st Trade Route to P = 4 arrows.
2200BC 2nd Trade Route to P
2100BC 3rd Trade Route to P. Trade= 23, Science=27
Power=Weak, 5 allies, 1 peace.
1650BC Copernicus Observatory Trade=20, Science=48
(trade routes = 3 arrows, Persepolis size dropped)
1450BC University built. Trade=20, Science=64, 4 turns.
1050BC Switch to Democracy. Trade=29, Science=116, 4 turns
(trade routes = 6 arrows, Persepolis celebrated to size 6)
Power=Pathetic, 6 allies.
675BC Isaac Newton's College Trade=29, Science=174, 3 turns.
550BC Railroad discovered. Railroad to Persepolis completed
using charged-up settler. Trade=35, Science=210, 3 turns
(trade routes = 8)
450BC Colossus Trade=37, Science=222, 3 turns
In retrospect, building Colossus was probably a mistake. It only produced 2 arrows of trade (3 after Superhighways), which resulted in 12 additional beakers per turn. Since I was running at 3 turns/tech, this was 36 beakers per cycle. This means Colossus probably extended the 3 turns/tech period by 2 cycles before it went to 4 turns/tech. In other words, Colossus saved 2 turns prior to Superhighways and one turn after. 3 turns saved for a cost of 4 caravans.
It would have been better to build Marco Polo. The intelligence about other civ's research activities provided by the embassy would have benefitted me more. For example, at least 4 civs researched Monarchy independently in this game. With Marco's I would have known this, traded for Monarchy and given it to the others, switching their research into something else. This could have given me 3 more traded techs and saved 9 turns or more. Plus, there were other research overlaps that MP would have detected.
275BC Persepolis, size8, (trade routes = 10)
Trade=43, Science=258, 3 turns
320AD Superhighways built. Trade=55,Science=330, 3 turns
trade routes=12. 19 caravan/freights stockpiled. 549 gold.
700AD Flight. Colossus expires. Trade=52, Science=312, 4 turns
28 caravans/freights. 1010 gold.
1000AD Research Lab built. Trade=52, Science=416, 3 turns.
35 caravans/freights. 1834 gold.
1160AD Space Flight.
1180AD Apollo 27 caravan/freights 2234 gold.
1550AD Fusion Power. Spaceship launched, 15-1-1-1-1-1.
1586AD SS lands AC.
Except for building Superhighways and Research Lab at the appropriate times, the middle and end game is mostly about building freights (for SS parts) and begging gold from allies.
OCC size1 is a much less map-dependent game than fullsize OCC. You only need one trade special (preferrably gold, but others will work) and a nearby civ. The small size ensures lots of allies and gifts of gold and requires less infrastructure than a regular city.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:23
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Could you comment on your foreign relations: what were the effects of all those alliances? did you ever agree to a demand that you break an alliance or go to war? did you gift Gunpowder to everyone the same turn as you got it? did the Persians dislike you being so close to their capital? how often did the other civs gift gold? how much, compared to their treasuries? did they drop in attitude if you were asking every turn, even if you did not get anything? what was your defense force? did you ever have a Persian unit wandering around in your city perimeter (doesnt matter if you were only size 1 working the ocean, but I'm curious..)? did you ask anyone to leave? when did you stop gifting techs? had any other civ gotten close to Nucs?
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samson
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Okay.
Sorry, I assumed most people here had played OCC and were familiar with the diplomatic aspects of a game played in that style.
The main effect of having 6 alliances is that you have a steady income of gold via 'gifts'. In this game, the Vikings and Persians were the real cash cows. Once their economies were going strong, I could get 50g from each of them every turn, occasionally more. In addition, I would get 50g from the Babylonians, Egyptians, and Greeks about once every four turns. This income allowed me to rush build caravans every other turn for pretty much the entire game.
No, asking them for cash every turn doesn't bother them much if your civ is Pathetic and has only 1 citizen. Most relations were Worshipful or Enthusiastic throughout. If they dropped to Cordial, I'd throw them a tech or two.
I only tech-gifted the Romans (white=pathetic) and Babylonians (green=weak) regularly.
There were a few wars among my allies, but I never got dragged into them. Usually a free tech would soothe any hurt feelings. My defense force was a NON-chariot I got from a hut in the early game, only used for chasing down barb leaders.
The Persians and I got along fine. As allies we could come and go in each others' territory without trouble. In fact, my 2nd settler spent most of his time improving the Persian capital's terrain ... roads and irrigation everywhere, to boost its population and trade.
I didn't always work the ocean square. After getting Bridge Building, I bridged a grassland river square and mined it into forest. This gave me the same 3 trade arrows and 1 food as the ocean plus 2 shields.
I gifted techs to my key-civ right up to and after Space Flight. Nothing withheld, gunpowder, nukes, the works. After Space Flight, of course, all my other allies insisted on a free tech each turn before they would let me beg for gold. This wasn't a problem, I gave them what they wanted.
After launch, I built a few real defensive units and a spy. But this was really unnecessary, no military threat ever materialized. This is pretty typical for an OCC size1 game.
Personally, I think OCC size1 is the easiest way to win at Deity. And it'll work with pretty much any random start.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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I remember how most were skeptical when you appeared on the scene with your "OCC on a shoestring" thread, but not any more!
I agree about Marco's being the better choice, too, since you can also monitor the AI gold reserves, saving needless contacts when they fall below 50.
Elephant,
I looked into gift giving in detail, and found out it works this way:
1) An alliance is formed to enable gifts. One gift is possible on the turn the alliance is made. After that there is a waiting period of 8 turns until that ally will be willing to part with more gold.
2) Once the 8 turn waiting period is over, you can ask for gold on any and every turn, and will get some if:
a) Your power rating is still lower than that of your ally.
b) Your ally still has more than 50 gold.
c) Your ally is kept in a good enough mood by your tech gifts or other favors. (a level of enthusiastic or better will do the trick).
I did not find any evidence that repeated requests, turn after turn, altered the ally's willingness to keep forking over more gold. They only seem to get "peeved" if you ask when one of the conditions above is no longer true. If you try an OCC game and keep your city small, you will be simply amazed at how much gold the AI are willing to part with. Enough to make it pretty boring.
below is a link to the relevant thread on alliances and gifts
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=22968
Last edited by solo on 25-10-2002 at 04:36
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:23
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I've never tried OCC that small - my problem has been getting ahead of my "allies" and trying to find ways to appease them. I'm often up to size 12 before 1AD, and 20+ within the next 1000.
I always go for Colossus first, but that is because Bronze-Currency-Trade is usually right after or during my Alph-CerBur-CoL-Monarchy tech path. Definitely go for MarcoPolo next, then the science wonders. Then Shakes or Statue to fundy. But those are all mega-city goals. Learn something new every day here...
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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SG,
Very interesting. I did not think to try swapping maps again to re-initiate gifts. I will keep this fine ploy in mind in future games.
In the game from which my observations were taken, I had an alliance with every other civ, and also had Marco Polo's to monitor their gold supplies. For a long time I could not figure out why some civs were paying and others weren't until I noticed that I was holding onto enough gold to push my power rating above that of some of the AI. When I spent enough gold to lower my rating enough, sure enough, the gifts resumed. I went back and forth many times with my power rating, above and below selected AI, with confirming results.
It just goes to show you that when you think you have an aspect of the game all figured out, an exception to the rule always seems to pop up! It's what keeps this game going.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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I tried to see how a size 1 OCC would work, but couldn't manage.
First I play ToT, which makes the AI less friendly I believe. Like it often starts asking you a tech (else war or break alliance), so contacting the AI every turn is out of the question (I can't give one tech every turn). Or is it just me? Anyone tried a size 1 OCC in ToT?
Also, I can't found on gold and work ocean, as I get only one food out of it and the city starves. That means I would have to go for grass, maybe irrigate it later and switch to ocean/hill/forest when needed in order to remain size 1. How does it work in your version?
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samson
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SG, No harbor.
A city is founded on Gold, continues to provide 1 food even after the mine comes in. In my game I worked the ocean square until I had Bridge Building, then switched to a river square that I had mined into Forest and bridged. This provided 3 arrows and 1 food (same as ocean) plus two shields.
As for the DateLine thing, it is extremely rare on a small map for the dateline to cross land squares. And even rarer to get a starting location near it. I have never seen a random map generate a location with two trade specials that could be worked by a size1 city. Of course, you could create one with the map editor.
However, a second trade special would not be of great help in size1 OCC anyway. With a single trade special you can reach a 3 turn tech rate. To reach the next quantum research state (2 turns/tech) you need a size 4 city with at least 3 trade specials and a Railroad trade bonus connection to a foreign city. 1 turn/tech requires a full blown city.
LDICesare,
Are you sure TOT does not give you 1 food if you found a city on Gold? Or are you just assuming that it won't? Try it. If not, then found the city on a river grassland and work the gold square to maximize your arrows.
MGE also has nasty AI and the gold-begging strategy is different with it from the every-turn approach that works in 2.4.2. In that version, you beg less often (giving techs if necessary) but will receive more gold per gift since it accumulates in the AI treasury. The resulting income is usually comparable. Try that approach for TOT.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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OCC the ToT way
A few summers back, I introduced my brother-in-law, Kevin, to Civ II during summer vacation, using my MGE edition of the game. When he got back home, he went out and bought ToT, the version being sold in stores at that time. During that winter, I learned OCC from Paul and the other regular participants of his “fortnightly” games. Meanwhile, Kevin was still in that part of the learning curve where deity spaceship wins still seemed unattainable. As we kept in touch throughout the winter, he was amazed at the landing dates we were getting in OCC.
The next summer while on vacation, we played again, using his ToT edition of the game, with the idea that I would play and win an OCC game while he watched to see how it was done. Things were progressing pretty much as usual. I had built the Colossus, had a library and university and had celebrated my city to size 8 or so, when I formed an alliance with some visiting Mongols. On the very next turn, they declared war and conquered my city! So much for OCC lessons!
The editions of Civ II vary a lot! The MGE AI have less patience, the biggest difference being how quickly their attitudes degrade when compared to the AI in 2.42. In ToT, diplomacy with the AI is about as reliable and useful as it was with the Germans shortly before the start of World War II!
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debeest
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Samson, once again my hat's off to you. I would never have had the nerve to try something like this, whereas you figure out how to do it and then show us.
Re food: one food from the mountain city, and one food from the ocean (or rivered forest), makes two foods. That feeds your one citizen, but what feeds your settler? I would expect to encounter the same problem that LDiCesare did.
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samson
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LDiCesare, Solo -- thanks for the info on TOT and OCC. Sounds tough indeed.
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Lars-E
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I am comparing your approach to the OCC guide that Paul made. It seems you forget about factory, power plant, and manufacturing plant and go for caravans/freight instead? You also go straight to republic, skipping monarchy often. If you'd bother could you come up with an alternative to Paul's "OCC strategy reference table"?
There seems to be many things you do different than that reference table.
http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occref.htm
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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In ToT, building on mountain gives no food. Thus it is quite hard to live up there.
I understand the difference with the "Paulicy": Republic is better than Monarchy as with a size 1 city, you will always be happy, so researching monarchy is useless as you can't WLTKD with a size 1 city. Factories and such won't give much of a boost if your production is 5 shields, so you need the caravans, freights and gold donation instead. This explains itself nicely, but it was indeed a feat to find it out and accomplish it.
Also note that the Paulicy is not the only way to go, for instance, many people prefer Marco Polo to the Colossus as a first wonder, because it allows you to send your camels where it will provide more trade earlier (and gift techs, etc.).
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samson
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Lars-E -
As LDiCesare states, staying at size 1 eliminates the need for many improvements and/or wonders that are usually built in OCC. Temple/colliseum/Shakespeare are not needed, nor are marketplace/bank etc. Factory, power plant, etc. will produce less than the cost in time and $$$ to build them.
Size1 is a special case. But my OCC play differs from the Paulicy at regular size cities, too. I almost always go straight for Republic, even if Monarchy can be researched right away. The increase in research cost of carrying any extra tech (Monarchy) is more expensive than any early benefit it provides. Also, Republic, when gifted to the AI, boosts the trade arrows of trading partner cities and thus increase trade routes and delivery payments. It also boosts the science of AI civs, allowing more tech exchanges.
My first build is usually Library. This is much more important to boosting science rate than Colossus. After Trade, I'll send out 3 caravans to get the trade routes going and zoom up to size 5 or 6 with WeLove!
The best first wonder, imo, is Copernicus. A 100% boost in science far outweighs the trade increase of Colossus.
The other place I differ from the Paulicy is in city size. I rarely go for refrigeration/supermarket or build a mega city. Each site has an optimal population size for science and production which is often far below its maximum size. I'll often stay at size 12 or less.
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24-10-2002 20:19
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